Hayden Winston 00:00
You know, I really well, I was not wearing slutty enough clothes and so you know, they see this kid and they’re like, well, (1) you look 12 (2), you know, you look pissed and (3), you’re all covered up. So clearly you don’t want anyone to talk to you.
K Anderson 00:16
Hello, I am K Anderson and you are listening to lost spaces, the podcast that mourns the death of queer nightlife. Every episode I talk to a different person about a venue from their past, the memories they created there and the people that they used to know. This week, we are talking about sounding gender reveal parties, and having skeezy strangers run their fingers through your chest hair with novelist poet activist Caden Winston. Though he currently lives in Sacramento, with his husband, Tom, he was born and raised in and around Los Angeles. And it was here in West Hollywood, that he started to explore the queer scene at the 18 and up night, Tiger heat. And Tiger he was held at a nightclub rage, which was open for 37 years, closing in 2020.
Hayden Winston 01:44
You met I know you’ve been because I was like, Well, I’m bi, I am having difficulty explaining this to girls. Because it would be a situation where I would date somebody and they’d be like, so are you gay, or like, what’s going to happen here, you know, he’d be for a guy. Or if I was dating a guy, it would be the converse of that, you know. So a lot of like, explaining myself constantly and trying to like, overcompensate constantly. And I just didn’t want to do that I wanted to be in a situation where I could meet whoever. I had also just gotten out of a relationship with like, my first boyfriend. So I was like, Okay, I’ll go online. I’ll put myself out there, if you meet someone, great if I don’t, whatever. And I was on there for a while, and it didn’t really met anybody. And it was what it was. And then I talked to two people. And one of them I was like, 99% matched with, but the conversation was like, Hey, how’s it going? It’s great. I was, it was good. How was your day? Like for several days of that? And then the second person was Tom.
K Anderson 02:43
And what percent match was it?
Hayden Winston 02:45
It was like a 77% match. So it’s not that much, too much in common where we’re going to hate each other. But you know, who knows what we’ll see. One enough for our first date. And yeah, we’re two. We went first to get sushi then to who got then to get ice cream. So it was like a did all of those things in one day. And the reason we did that is because neither of us at the time had cars. So we had to, like meet in a neutral position because, you know, online dating, so I went from Glendale Burbank, he went from Santa Clarita to Burbank, because that’s kind of in the middle. And we figured we’ll meet in broad daylight. So either of us are serial killers, you know, there’s some kind of record. I had my Sony. He called me during the date to make sure he wasn’t a killer, he says, during the day to make sure I wasn’t a killer.
K Anderson 03:40
Wow, you took it Really? Seriously. You
Hayden Winston 03:43
We really did. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Well, you know, being men, we know how men are so
K Anderson 03:50
no bad. I mean, like only a very small portion of men.
Hayden Winston 03:54
But also this was like during the time of like the Craigslist killer. So you had to you know, we had to be extra careful.
K Anderson 04:00
Oh, tell me about this.
Hayden Winston 04:03
Well, there there was a killer. There was a- I don’t know too much information about it, unfortunately. But there was a gentleman who was killing people on off of Craigslist ads, meeting people and murdering them. Oh, wait, can you see the little after that this wasn’t like, right during that situation. But you know, we all had it fresh in our mind. So it was like, if you can just take an extra step. And it’s a first date with somebody that you you know, never met in person before. Why not? And we continue to like talk though online. And at the time, it was Skype, because there is no zoom. Skype each other. And, yeah,
K Anderson 04:37
I wanted to just circle back and talk about your experience as a bisexual man seeking dating. You’ve talked about the experience of people being like, Well, you know, are you going to going to go to the other sex at some point? Did you ever have people kind of fetishise you because, well, I’m really talking about gay man because I see a lot on Unlike Grindr and hookup apps have like people kind of being like I’m only interested in straight or bi men and and this kind of projection of like that they’re more masculine or something.
Hayden Winston 05:12
You know what? I experienced it only online because in person I don’t present super masculine. So that was never anything that anybody who knew me would project. But on the apps. Yeah. When I would be on the apps, it was definitely Oh, you’re bi, that’s hot. And I always thought that was really weird, because it’s so weird that we got the opposite. We just get like, hate about it. So it wasn’t anything I ever really put in my profile, because I found like the guys who were really putting in their profile, were kind of seeing that that is a Houston. And I really wasn’t I didn’t want to be fetishised. I just wanted to be appreciated for who I was. So it’s like, yeah, I’m good. I’m good there.
K Anderson 05:56
Yeah, I find her Yeah, I
Hayden Winston 05:57
avoided that. And I definitely avoided people who were like into black guys.
K Anderson 06:02
Oh, oh, god. Yeah, that’s so weird. Like, I’m not saying that this is the same thing at all, because there’s like this. There’s many, many different layers. But like, I’m a little bit ginger. And so I get people like who are like, Hey, I’m really into gingers, and I’m like,
Hayden Winston 06:22
my husband is ginger. And I find that also a very weird phenomenon because that didn’t qualify. Yeah, it wasn’t like, oh my god collecting this ginger. Like, oh, I was just like, oh, he’s cute. And also he’s got red hair. Yeah, like it was just an added thing. Yeah. But yeah, I do find that phenomenon. Very strange. It is very much along the same lines of like picking out one thing about someone one characteristic and being really in better disc rather than having to get to know the person, you know. Because it’s like, what if you dye your hair?
K Anderson 06:58
Well, I mean, I think you know, there’s other bits of my body with hair on it that I wouldn’t dye. But it’s also like it’s so rigid. I just find it so rigid and weird to be like, I’m only into this kind of thing. I’m only into this. This is what I’m seeking. It’s it’s a really yeah, it’s really interesting.
Hayden Winston 07:16
I never understood why people don’t treat dating the way that they treat picking fro-yo or taking like, any other kind of gelato
K Anderson 07:28
Did you just say fro-yo? That’s so LA
Hayden Winston 07:33
Yes, because have you ever watched anyone in a frozen yoghurt shop or getting gelato? Or getting ice cream? How they were like can I sample this? Can I sample that? And people try 21 flavours they don’t even like before they get something but when it’s dating it’s I only want to date this group. You only want to experience this nobody wants to try anything outside and what their flavour profile may be and it’s so weird
K Anderson 07:56
let’s see I’m the ice I feel bad about trying to free sample so I just I just go with something I know this is ruining your story. You’re gonna get something in the new sample a couple of different flavours well yeah I guess if you do have the intention of buying it’s not like being stingy and cheap but I still feel like
Hayden Winston 08:16
I can’t do more than like two I’ve never been somebody to go in and get like six seven different flavours much
K Anderson 08:22
yeah I think like the body language of the person serving me always makes me like oh I’m really sorry I just I just I just get everything just go let’s go
Hayden Winston 08:30
that and I’ve worked retail I’ve never worked like food service per se but retail and I can only imagine that they already hate being there. So
K Anderson 08:40
I noticed that the waste of those tiny spoons as well just like so many tiny spoons being wasted every day. choking turtles – let’s take a moment. And, then, so Rage in West Hollywood… why did you want to talk about Rage?
Hayden Winston 08:57
Well, so I’m 31 and we just been around for 37 years before it closed. So it really is bar I grew up with and it was one of the very first gay bars I ever got a chance to go to. I did for a little bit background I grew up in a very strict Caribbean household. So being here and of itself. My whole life I’ve pretty much viewed as a sin. So when it was the opportunity when I had the opportunity to come out and really like live my truth be myself. I you know took two spaces like West Hollywood because it was the first time I saw how normalised being a queer person was like that was the first time I got to see couples not being demonised holding hands walking down the street kissing my mom had had beer friends, but I always thought through the lens that she thought through she’d be like, it’s a shame that man is gay. He’s so handsome, that sort of thing. You know where and we’ve talked about it now and she apologises for this and she’s very accepting of my relationship. I should give that caveat before she murders me. But But at the time You know, she didn’t know that she was doing this damage and that’s how I internalised it. So when I came out and I was like 19/20 getting a chance to really go out to bars and experience nightlife I also got to see just you know, in broad daylight, couples holding hands walking down the street lesbians gays, you know, polyamorous couples and it was just such a refreshing view to see that these people have jobs and apartments and cars and lives. They’re not just out here, you know, committing grave sin, you know?
K Anderson 10:33
I mean that they might be and
Hayden Winston 10:35
they probably know more about the community let me just say especially restaurants I you know, I like my dude, the gays deserve rights. But no,
K Anderson 10:47
let’s not let’s not go any further on that. So when was this the first time that you went out in West Hollywood? How old were you?
Hayden Winston 10:57
Oh, man, I was probably like 19 because I didn’t do much going out at 18 to like gay bars. I was still in the closet ish. I was trying to decide what watching so much gay porn meant and, and why I still liked kissing girls. So I couldn’t be like, it was that. And then 19 knows a little bit more. I’d already kissed a guy by then. And I was like, Okay, I’m gonna give this a shot, we’re gonna go out, we’re gonna see what it’s like, I’m gonna go with my friends. And we’re gonna try it out. And rage wasn’t 18 and overbore. So it was one of the few places that actually cut into you. So that’s why it was like everybody’s first you know, gay bar because it was 18 and over and they had this night they’re called Tiger heat. And Tiger heat is just as trashy as it sounds. You know, you show up in your shortest shorts, your midriff shirt. It’s easy to not write and they don’t serve alcohol. So we would just get someone over 21 and then drink a bunch of alcohol in a car in an alleyway. And then run into the you know, the club just drunk as hell. So it was only a matter of time before somebody under age got kicked out. But it was definitely a moment in time, you know?
K Anderson 12:12
So what was your first night there? Like, were you tapped already?
Hayden Winston 12:16
Oh yeah, I was probably really drunk on very cheap vodka to get this stuff called portas. Which is like rubbing alcohol with your ad? No. Oh, it’s 1% vodka. It’s like 1% vodka. It’s not most of it is not vodka. And it burns from the moment you open the cap like and it’s sold you know, not even on the top shelf or anywhere near the top shelf of any rundown liquor store even like a rundown the grocer wouldn’t sell it on the top shelf. It’s like behind the counter, you know, they’ve got to reach really low. And then they look at you like are you sure you want to buy that and pop off was another one that we used to buy? What is another cheap vibe?
K Anderson 13:06
It’s just cheap. Oh, so you were firmly in the vodka lane?
Hayden Winston 13:10
Firmly in the vodka lane at this time? I don’t know why. But you know, that was what we were able to get. I guess somebody’s older brother was able to buy us vodka so
K Anderson 13:21
is it like one of those things where you know like when you first go to the coffee shop and they’re like all of these options and you’re like I don’t know what any of these are I’m just going to order one and then suddenly that’s the only drink that you order anytime you go to the coffee shop because that’s the only way you actually know what it is.
Hayden Winston 13:37
Absolutely. Because I didn’t know about whiskey I didn’t know about gin. I didn’t know about wine very much like all we knew was okay we know vodka and it’s clear and you can mix it with most things like sprite and you know kind of get away with it. So that I think is why we chose vodka to you because you could like put it in a spray bottle and walk around and you know no
K Anderson 13:58
one could see with it. Yeah. Oh clear Yeah,
Hayden Winston 14:01
whiskey we didn’t like too much because of the the aftertaste was a little bit stronger. I did have some friends like sneak jack daniels into coke bottles. So that was another thing we used to do but yeah, vodka for whatever reason was everybody’s fate
K Anderson 14:15
and so then do you remember that like going in the first time What was that like? What did that do to your senses?
Hayden Winston 14:23
Well I remember a very long lines and not being kind of prepared to wait in line for for a while but it was
K Anderson 14:29
So, like, being being a diva?
Hayden Winston 14:32
Yeah, just like like I you know, I was too much at 20 so 19/20 I I was just like, I can’t believe we’re waiting in this line. What Why did we show up to this bar? What are we doing here? I probably was complaining to all my friends and they probably told me to shut up and just wait. And then by the time we got in I remember like the music was so loud but it was just like an awesome experience of like the music overtaking you and then the room is was very At the time, and they just had a couple of like those rave lights going. So you see maybe like a flash of light here in there. And then origins go go boys dancing. It was just I was overwhelmed. I don’t think I’d ever been in a environment like that up until that point.
K Anderson 15:19
And the one of the things that I’m really fascinated about with over 18 bars is what the clientele is like, because I always assume that it should be, like 18 1920 year olds, but what I’ve been told by other people is that actually, it’s a bit skeezy and that there are older people, lingering sorry for any older people.
Hayden Winston 15:41
That’s the funny part. When I turned like 2021 2021 22 we were like, We have software days you know, everybody’s cuz it’s just crowded with too many 18 year olds, we’re tired of that we want to drink and hang out. And like hit on people our age was the joke, even though there were that far from our age group and felt kind of weird at that point. But as an 18 year old being in LA, as far as I can tell you there, it was pretty creepy. There were definitely the weird 30 year old, you know, guys, over tipping the GoPro dancers, and like good for them, they’re getting, you know, the money they need, but it just felt kind of odd seeing so many older people in those cases, you know, like, when, when it is like an eating enough night, or I’ll kind of give this away because I’m not really friends with this person. I knew somebody who, when we were like, 2021 was dating somebody in their 40s that they met at Tiger heat. And we all thought it was really strange, because we were like, you were 19 when you met them, they were already in their 40s there was no reason for them to be at an agent enough club on easy to nominate why specifically that night if they had been there any other night and you happen to like, run into them. That’s one thing. But it’s a tenant out night. That happened a lot where like, you know, occasionally one of somebody you knew who’s young would start dating somebody a lot older than them because they met at Tiger heat, and then that’s dating, but they’re not really dating because a person’s married or something. Yeah. Yeah, it was one of those situations.
K Anderson 17:14
Yeah, it’s like one of those things that when I was younger, I just probably wouldn’t have questioned and like when I was like, maybe 18 or 19. I dated this guy in his that was in his 30s. I think he was in his 30s. Maybe he was older. And I didn’t really like think about it that much at the time, because you know, he was buying me stuff. So I was like, Oh, this is great. But now when I look back on it, I just think, how was he not like, incredibly bored? How was he not just like, Oh my God, you are so stupid. Whenever I opened my mouth.
Hayden Winston 17:47
That, you know, that’s the thing about it like we have now we know people? I wouldn’t say friends, but like we know people who are like contemplating dating people that much younger, and the conversation is always void. You talk to them about what are you? What do you have in common with somebody who’s 19 at 31? Like,
K Anderson 18:05
yeah, yeah, and it’s not like it’s not I have a problem with age difference relationships. And like, I know, I’m sounding really like judgmental in what I’m saying. But I think there’s maybe there’s maybe a threshold like there’s, at one point, just haven’t experienced enough to be any conversational use.
Hayden Winston 18:27
I totally agree with you, like, my parents have a five year gap. So I can’t you know, I’m not gonna shit on relationships that are intergenerational all or where there’s a gap, you know, between people. But I definitely think that, like you said, there’s a threshold where it’s like, not only are they not going to be of any conversation or use, but is this a wise decision for me to undertake a relationship with somebody who hasn’t experienced enough of their life to give the same sort of feedback that I would get from someone who else like that? I think that’s on the older person to think about why am I trying to seek out a relationship with somebody so much younger? Is it a control thing? Is it a power dynamic that I’m seeking? What specifically about this is attractive to me? Because if you’re honest with yourself about it, and you’re like, hey, I want to be the advice giver who nurtures this person and yeah, maybe I like that I make more money than them, then fine. Be honest about that with yourself in that person. But I think pursuing the relationship with the pretences that it’s a relationship and you guys are equals is always gonna be false.
K Anderson 19:31
Um, I guess just picking up on your point, like relationships are never equal. We’re always like, peaks and troughs in in power.
Hayden Winston 19:42
Okay, I can say that I can. I can definitely agree with that. What I mean by equal isn’t necessarily, you guys are both exactly bringing the same thing to the table at the same time, always but that there’s an understanding and generally their burden capability for you to enter into and leave the relationship without so much like needing the other person. And I think when you get to like those large age gaps, like okay, if you’re 18, dating somebody in their 40s, you become dependent on that person in a way that if you have it worked now let’s say you’re in a relationship with them for five, six years, if you haven’t worked at that point, you only have a high school diploma and no work experience five, six years long in your life, versus if you’re in a relationship like that, in your late 20s, you’ll at least have some work experience to fall back on generally mean like, generally speaking, if you’ve worked up until that point, then you get in a relationship with somebody who tells you don’t work anymore. Well, at least you have some work experience outside of your high school life to fall back on and you have some experience in the world outside of your high school life to fall back on being in a relationship. I say this because my mom’s married to my dad from like, 89. And like, didn’t know anything after the divorce had to figure out like how to be a whole adult and reconfigure her life because so much of her life is dependent on having another person there who can help you figure those things out, no
K Anderson 21:09
40 year olds will be like, don’t work, I’m going to support you. Absolutely
Hayden Winston 21:13
not. But anything in those sorts of relationships like I where it is that sort of thing where the person is dependent on them and, and obviously building their life around this sort of like in balance, it becomes challenging for them to break out now other relationships where there’s just an age gap, whatever you’re saying, I don’t like if you if you have your own, you know, course of action for how you’re going to run your life and you’re not super dependent on Southern person. And there’s the normal, you know, code dependencies or whatever that come with relationships, then fine, do your thing, I have no agenda objection to it, I just think it is a little skeezy from the older person’s point of view, to always pursue a relationship with somebody so much younger than you. Because you are kind of benefiting from that person’s lack of knowledge every single time, whether you admit it or not. And that’s the case. There’s only so much the younger person can know. Yeah, and experienced and assured in that amount of time, even if they’re wise beyond their years, even if they’ve had more traumatic experiences. There’s just only so much you can get from life in 2022 years, you know,
K Anderson 22:20
yeah, so a lot of things. It’s definitely not for me, yeah,
Hayden Winston 22:23
I didn’t even somebody’s not that much older, I was 21, like a fresh 21. And they were 27. And even that I thought was like, maybe not this age gap again, after that relationship. Because I was like, yeah, there’s a lot that like, this person knows about life that I don’t know. And I feel like they’re constantly correcting me. One of the things I
K Anderson 22:44
just said like, Oh, she does,
Hayden Winston 22:47
oh, I mean, he kind of was
K Anderson 22:51
like, I mean, that’s something that carries, like, regardless of how old you are.
Hayden Winston 22:55
Yeah, and I think that’s hard to do, though is like, it’s hard not to say like, you know, oh actually exists when you know, that’s the case or to like, feel like you’re trying to guide that person along all the time. And I am cognizant of that, even though there’s not like a big age gap to me, my husband, I try not to always give him the answer to everything unless he asked me because there are some times where I want to jump in and be like, Hey, no, do this. And it’s like, that’s not my decision to make I need to let him Yeah, his own person and make his own decisions. Yeah, so it can be difficult. Yeah.
K Anderson 23:26
And it’s like at some point, it doesn’t really matter what age you are, it’s just about what experiences you’ve had. Right? Yeah. Okay, back to rage. So you said that like by 19, you’d kind of kissed your first boy and that’s when you decided like oh, I might go and explore the scene some then what?
Hayden Winston 23:45
So it was kind of a whirlwind situation like, I went out I would go out I would dance by myself in clubs with my friends. I would get real sad that no guys talk to me and then I would go Yeah, you know, it’s funny because like, I I my expectation was not I’m gonna go out and I’m gonna be the hottest guy at this bar. But it was like well, if I go out with the intention to meet somebody, maybe a will. And then that just didn’t didn’t happen but I also wasn’t like making conversations with Yeah, I was just hoping someone would like bump into me or something on the way to the bathroom or the bar and we you know, have a chat like
K Anderson 24:28
that. So I see I have a similar experience in that I used to go out a lot and I used to go out a lot on my own. And like dance and stuff, and be like, maybe someone will talk to me, but I yeah, there’s something about me that’s off putting to people and it’s like either resting bitchface or, like, I just seem like I’m in my own world or something and no one wants to interrupt. Do you have any like reflections on why no one was talking to you.
Hayden Winston 24:55
I can relate to the resting bitchface definitely. I have seen myself in photos where I’m not smiling and it looks like don’t approach me ever
K Anderson 25:03
we need to start like some kind of support group or society or something like overcome the stigma right
Hayden Winston 25:09
and that also now reflecting I don’t know if this is the case for you but I wasn’t dressing slutty enough like you know I really well I was not wearing slutty enough clothes and so you know they see this kid and they’re like, well one you look 12 two you know you look pissed and three you’re all covered up. Well you don’t want I mean cardigans and like
K Anderson 25:32
You went clubbing in a cardigan? weren’s you hot?
Hayden Winston 25:37
Well, these were like h&m cardigans. It wasn’t like a little like a my my grandpa’s cardigan. Yeah, it was like yeah, ben stein was so but definitely not. Like I saw guys, you know, who were like shirtless or showing it off and I wasn’t I wasn’t in that. Oh, I wasn’t quite in the harness and jockstrap.
K Anderson 25:58
No, no. Like you are like now. Yeah.
Hayden Winston 26:01
No. grocery store. That’s my, my outfit.
K Anderson 26:06
So you think like, you would just not study enough? That’s a horrible message to send.
Hayden Winston 26:14
Yeah, kids be slow.
K Anderson 26:18
To talk to you in the club. Just take a few layers of clothes off. Yeah, no,
Hayden Winston 26:24
no, but you know what I mean by that, too, is like there’s also a vibe that goes with it, where people pick up on like, okay, you’re interested, you want to talk to other people. You’re here for it. I think I was so in my own head about what I looked like. And if I was bad enough muscles, and I was tall enough and all that because being you know, five, six, and not, you know, you’re
K Anderson 26:45
five, six. I’m sorry, sir. Sure. Yeah. Yeah,
Hayden Winston 26:49
you’re fine. And I’m not might like my husband’s like six feet, right. Like, whenever anyone, whenever I would see stuff on Grindr, it’s like a description of my husband. And, and I’m fit but you know, five, six, everyone’s like, oh, a short guy. It’s not my thing. So I already had like hangups about that I already had enough hang ups about seeing all the like, into black guys on Grindr, or not into black guys, which was the more prevalent thing that I saw on Grindr. So I was kind of like, okay, I don’t really know what I’m gonna get out of this, but I’m going to show up and see what happens. And then when nothing would happen, it would be like a self fulfilling prophecy.
K Anderson 27:24
So where are you like, Okay, well, I didn’t you know, I didn’t pick up this evening, or no one told me this evening, no big deal, or did you then kind of beat yourself up about it and internalise and blame yourself? A little bit
Hayden Winston 27:37
of both. I think as time went on, I just kind of learned no big deal. But in the first couple of times, it happened. I was definitely I beat I beat myself about it. I know one time they were with a friend who did pick up someone. And they were like, making out and I became the third wheel and I cried, and it’s so it’s so embarrassing. I’m so much older now though, so I could laugh at it. No, it’s funny. It was like, I didn’t do it in a way that like they saw, but my friend noticed later and and it was like I was dancing and crying. You know, it was one of the durations. I mean, now it’s so fucking stupid. Like now I would laugh at myself about that. But at the time, I just was like all of my self worth isn’t whether or not then find you attractive because I’ve been dating women unsuccessfully for so sounds like I’ve got a can’t be unsuccessful at dating women and men. And that’s how I looked at you at the time was like, you know, I had girlfriends and didn’t really work out right? So it’s kind of like, well, maybe I’m just not good at this, like dating girls thing. And then it was like, and not good at dating guys. Either. This sucks.
K Anderson 28:45
But wait, did you go into like heading out on the queer scene? And like, like trying to date men with the mentality of giving up on women? It’s too hard.
Hayden Winston 28:56
No, because? Because like I still dated girls a little bit in between. So it wasn’t like I was like, Yeah, no, I’m done with women. But I was definitely like, I it should be easier with men. This is all I’ve heard is it’s easier as men. So like, I was like, Yeah, great. I should be able to go into this and score big time. And that was not
K Anderson 29:18
it. Yeah, well, yeah. Whoever gave you that advice was a bit of an idiot, really, unless they were talking about sex.
Hayden Winston 29:25
Which probably was the case and it probably was like, well, it’s easier to like, find a guy who you want to have sex with, or a guy that will be interested in having sex with you even if you’re not necessarily attracted to that person on multiple levels. So like, I see now what you meant. That is easy. Yes. Let’s now
K Anderson 29:45
can we talk about like what West Hollywood is like, because I don’t know I’ve never been I just imagine it being very sis. White gay men.
Hayden Winston 29:55
Yep. You described it. I don’t know how it is now. It’s been a couple Couple of years since I’ve had the chance to go there and really experience it, but that was pretty much it. I mean, we’d see maybe like a couple of lesbian couples. I know in the recent years a lot of drag queens from like repulse drag race that moved down there. So I’m assuming there’s a little bit more diversity in terms of you know, that now, but for the most part, going to the club and going out and club seeing, like, definitely very much says white. You know, gay men. And then you get some, like straight dudes who come over there too. But even the gogo boys, I mean, they all kind of look the same. It’s a very, you know, it’s that same look and style and hair less. It definitely felt a little bit. Yeah, hairless just like and ridiculous. Like, I live in the gym. 24 seven, which, if you do great, I could never. But like, I really appreciate it. It’s like, awesome, but you definitely dedicate a lot of your time to this. And then like, that’s, for a lot of people.
K Anderson 30:58
I mean, 20 years, like, it’s kind of like pointless,
Hayden Winston 31:01
right? Yeah, so I don’t know, but but it definitely that and that was discouraging me for a long time. I didn’t go I think that’s one of the reasons why it wasn’t a little bit slower. Because I was like, Well, I’m not really like the type. So showing off my body really wouldn’t make any sense. And then it wasn’t until years later in time that we’re about to move Sacramento and we went down to talk with friends to like celebrate that I was like, I love my body. I don’t care anymore about being the type and I went in like a hardest and a leather jacket and has like the time of my life got free drinks from bartenders like yeah there’s a good lesson straight women came up to me and harassed me.
K Anderson 31:42
And this is good This is good.
Hayden Winston 31:45
Well, that sometimes it’s like as a bi guy it’s weirdly validating Not gonna lie, especially since I’ve been in a relationship with a man for you know, seven years so it’s not like I’m like having a lot of interaction with women so when it when it does happen, and a woman hits on me by accident or something, I’m like, Oh, great. I’m still attractive to two
K Anderson 32:07
times tires, you’re attract.
Hayden Winston 32:08
Yeah. It’s like right, right? Did it did I change are they are they like, he’s too cuz, you know, they’re I grew up with women who were like, cleaning is a little too gay. You know, like, and hearing that sometimes, like, was crushing or women who didn’t do it by guys specifically, because they’re like, I don’t want to I want to buy a gun out of like, a thinner guy guy. Right? And it’s like, why not? We could paint each other’s nails. You never know what you’re getting. Yeah. But yeah, so I kind of was on guard for that, I think a lot. And so maybe internally, there’s a little bit of that, like, Oh, nice. There’s a little bit of validation. But for the most part, it is kind of off putting.
K Anderson 32:46
And yeah, I’m thinking of a particular type of straight woman that would go to a gay bar and leering appropriately at someone in a leather jacket and a harness. So that might be Oh, well, my response, not
Hayden Winston 32:58
just Lear run their hands on my body without permission. That is definitely was interesting. Because like, you know, your torso was exposed. So it’s, you know, people just feel like they can come up and touch you what is
K Anderson 33:13
what is the psychology behind that?
Hayden Winston 33:16
You know, with straight women in gay spaces? I think they feel like there’s, there’s the removal of the Hitman, so they’re not afraid. Yes, yes. It’s like, now I’m the predator. And look how much power I have. It’s because it is there is power in that, you know, we don’t talk about that a lot. But a lot of the reason why people prey on other people is because they, at some point, have felt like they’ve had a lack of power in their lives. And so I think, you know, that is interesting, because it’s like, yep, I get to now I get to be, you know, the straight man and drink too much and catcalling harass the drag queen must
K Anderson 33:58
love it, because he’s dressed that way. Yeah, that’s right,
Hayden Winston 34:00
you know, look at how you were dressed.
K Anderson 34:06
In that way, How interesting. And so then going into those spaces where there is a very defined type and and lots of people are striving to live up to that type. Was that like, was that intimidating? Or was that freeing because you could never live up to that?
Hayden Winston 34:25
It was intimidating at first and it became freeing because I accepted that like, this is not ever going to be me. And this is also not the only way that somebody in the community needs to look feel Be it was weird because when we came to Sacramento and went to our first gay bar here just like going house hunting trip. I saw like heavier gogo boys, and I almost had a heart attack because it was like wow, they hired they hiring everyone. Everyone like skinny dudes, thick dudes. Like it was just weird because His like West Hollywood only has that muscle type and obviously not only look like that, so it’s like you either are either all sourcing from the same place. Or, you know, you’ve got a endless parade of muscle boys just waiting to do these jobs. And the reality is because of LA and because of you know, the fact that it’s the film industry, the television industry, you do have an endless parade of muscle boys moving from all over the country. Yeah. Not necessarily be gogo boys, but to work, you know, in the industry, and they can do this at night and go on auditions in the daytime. So the standard becomes set with this unrealistic, you know, version of beauty that yeah, it’s it’s really just the most quote unquote, beautiful people sourced from random places. This isn’t what the landscape would look like, if you’re just you know, and when you go to other towns, you and you’re like, crap,
K Anderson 35:52
Wow, very big. Yeah. Because there is goodness, I remember like when I started going out, and it was like, everyone hairless and shiny and like, well oiled as well. People just like oil. They’re like,
Hayden Winston 36:10
yeah, just like huge. And you’re like,
K Anderson 36:14
Yeah, I just like white teeth and like, you know, just these really kind of impossible. Sorry, white teeth isn’t something for me to pick on. Because it’s quite easy to achieve, but like, just I’m too lazy. And just Yeah, I remember just being like, well, like fuck my drag, right? Like, I didn’t fit in here at all. Like, I don’t look anything like this. But then that was kind of like well cool, because no one’s looking at me so I can just dance and I can just be myself.
Hayden Winston 36:42
I had to stop myself from snapping when you said fuck my drag. Thank you. And Kennedy Davenport, Stan? No, I you know what? That’s exactly what it is. It’s like once it hits you that like okay, Janata candle. I never will be on steroids. And that’s fine. You just stop worrying about
K Anderson 37:04
that. But yeah, like it was. It was kind of tempting to try and fit in for a while. And I remember like, trying on those kind of, I was gonna say, cloaks, I didn’t mean cloaks, like just trying to fit in and like, I think ivete hit my chest hair. What?
Hayden Winston 37:25
I was gonna say did you did you laugh?
K Anderson 37:28
I never want to be. I’ve never waxed. Have you ever waxed?
Hayden Winston 37:33
I’ve never worked but I also was like, relatively hairless until like my late 20s. Oh, yeah, like I had like hairy legs. But like not a lot of body hair. So it’s it’s not even still like, I don’t have a lot of like chest hair or anything like that. So it’s not, but it
K Anderson 37:50
started showing up in your late 20s. Yeah, interesting. Yeah, no waxing. Like, I just I think I’m just too lazy to book the appointment. It’d be interesting. It’d be interesting to experience.
Hayden Winston 38:02
Yeah, I mean, do you have tattoos? Yes. So you can handle waxing?
K Anderson 38:06
Yeah, well, well, I don’t know. Like because the ball sack?
Hayden Winston 38:10
Oh, yeah. See, there’s just certain things I don’t know if I would prefer to just wax or continue with my current method of shaving.
K Anderson 38:19
We might just turn method of doing nothing. And I didn’t know it will be it will be. It will be interesting. Maybe one day I will. Maybe that should be like the next episode of the show.
Hayden Winston 38:30
You’ve got to trust somebody to you to let them wax your balls
K Anderson 38:33
to you. If they’re wearing like the uniform and you’re in a salon, like that’s
Hayden Winston 38:40
true, I guess I would just be like, Can I get a piece of leather to bite on? Might be might be like a fun, cute little kink experience. You know?
K Anderson 38:50
Yeah, I think like you should try and experience as many things as you can in life. So maybe maybe I’ll maybe I will book that bull waxing session. If we could go back to West Hollywood, quickly, I’ve heard that like colloquially it was referred to as Boystown. And now they’re trying to phase that out and call that the LGBT rainbow district. Yeah, what are your thoughts on that?
Hayden Winston 39:19
So here’s the thing, there are, the number of like LGBT spaces in the country are shrinking, and the number of lesbian spaces already nil to none. So trying to open it up and trying to be more inclusive to not just the lesbian community, but to the trans community. To every other letter in the in the acronym i think is helpful. It does feel like you either have to be a gay man and be in those spaces or you don’t belong. And so I think removing Boystown is sort of the organism and going with something else is a nice shift. It’s just kind of an evolutionary thing. A lot of the other communities that had boys towns like Chicago and even like San Francisco’s area kind of like changing that as well so it’s just you know it’s we’re going with the times what do you think about it?
K Anderson 40:10
So yeah, I’m totally down for the change in name and I do think that you know, we should move with the times. I just wish the new name wasn’t so boring.
Hayden Winston 40:18
I agree with you then your name is boring.
K Anderson 40:21
But yeah, it’s just so firstly, I wish like it was I don’t know, because Boystown is kind of like it sounds exciting and like it could be a real town.
Hayden Winston 40:31
When I first heard the term Boys Town, I like googled it to be like, Where is this? And the most common Boystown that gets referred to here in the states is Chicago’s Boystown, which I forget the actual name of that community now and the community is trying really hard to like when you Google it, the name of the community comes up like that and Boystown.
K Anderson 40:53
What they’re trying to like bury their history.
Hayden Winston 40:56
Yes, very much so like you can’t find it in the Wikipedia article in the first you know paragraph it’s like way down also known as Boystown. Like they’re really trying to bury it but here in Sacramento we have a little square it’s literally like you could walk around the whole square and be done and see everything here and in all the city called lavender heights Ah, I actually think that’s a little bit cuter
K Anderson 41:22
Hayden Winston 41:23
yeah, it’s like okay, we’re going to lavender heights even though it’s a really small area I wish it was a little bit larger because it’s like a it’s an it can even really be a gayborhood honestly like they they’ve had a rainbow fest here and they blocked off one street
K Anderson 41:41
you’re not getting tired from all the walking
Hayden Winston 41:43
true true but anyway I thought you know growing up with West Hollywood and being able to walk down Santa Monica all the way to a certain point and see nothing but just you know gays and I didn’t know that the gays on the houses in the area it was a lot different to go to the Starbucks and to see a bunch of gays there you know was a lot different than you know right when we turn the corner it’s we’re assaulted by straight couples
K Anderson 42:06
I mean, I don’t mind there’s just so much of it going around
Hayden Winston 42:10
I just wish they weren’t you know, I look at some of my siblings are straight street sisters at street brothers I love them I accept them no matter what I just wish that they would do it behind closed doors not you know Robin and everybody’s nice and so much you know. Like they’re out here with the PDA and the weddings and you know the baby reveal parties. It’s a lot
K Anderson 42:31
Have you like have your siblings had baby reveal parties?
Hayden Winston 42:34
No. Okay. Well actually let me let me not say that because I think that my niece who I love and adore so much might have been a gender reveal party but I don’t think it canon was involved
K Anderson 42:50
secondary property was destroyed
Hayden Winston 42:52
K Anderson 42:55
I mean, you know like it’s a reason to party I guess so that’s great. But yeah, the whole thing is really super odd. I wonder what percentage of people like don’t find out the gender of their baby now.
Hayden Winston 43:09
You know what so I’d be so curious to know that because I have two sisters and two brothers Tom has a sister and only one of my siblings My sister has a baby so far and is married and I’m Tom sister is married and has a son and or a child we should say because we were very cool with being like our you know, we’re calling him nestling at first or them or knowing we’re being we’re using like they them pronouns when she was pregnant. She very much chose like neutral colours for the child and everything now we do use he him pronouns, I guess I could kind of just do that, because we’re kind of gendering the kitten now but he’s like here and I guess looks like a boy. But we’re also like she buys in Barbies. So like, she’s being very inclusive with how she’s raising him. And we’re not so much like you’re a boy you need to have blue stuff and you need to play with trucks and that’s the opposite of how she’s doing it. And I don’t think she found out the gender she did she was a C section but I don’t think she ever asked them for the gender of the child we didn’t know whether we were gonna have nephew or niece like right up to
K Anderson 44:19
see I don’t know what I would do like I’d like to say that Oh, I’ll just find out like when it comes like no big deal, but I don’t know I probably would get really curious especially if it was growing inside me. Yeah,
Hayden Winston 44:31
I could see that that’s why I didn’t play my sister I’m like look you had to carry this thing for nine months you do whatever you want and all
K Anderson 44:36
anyone wants to talk about the baby right? Like like you can’t escape so you may as well find out something about it
Hayden Winston 44:45
yeah, they’re gonna ask you like so you know do you know the jet and you feel weird being like now I doubt Yeah. Yeah.
K Anderson 44:50
Like you want to like you don’t want to let people down. You want to bring new news to them. Like I know something new. They have two legs,
Hayden Winston 44:57
but they were also cool with saying we know this. subtotals but not the gender because gender identity and that will form later. So all we know is that he’s male. And we were like, okay, we can go with that. And that’s kind of how I think we’re operating is like, we know this child sex, but we don’t know this child’s gender. Yeah,
K Anderson 45:13
it’ll be really interesting to see what happens. Like, I already feel like I’m like, part of like this forgotten, forgotten generation that like, didn’t ever have those queer role models or kind of visibility or the normalising of gender diversity or diverse sexualities. And so I see people that are like, even 10 years younger than me, or, you know, 15 years younger than me, that is, so just like, whatever it’s called whatevs. And they still weren’t part of like the generation that kind of grew up with people not enforcing gender on them of like, in early childhood and things. So I find it really fascinating, like, what is going to be happening in like, 20 years time when these kids are adults?
Hayden Winston 46:06
Absolutely. You know, like you it’s funny that you mentioned that because I have a said younger brothers, and there’s three and six years older than me. And one of them is in a relationship with somebody who’s non binary. And that was a huge shift for our family. Because like, I thought I was the revolutionary one. Your brother comes along, you enjoy straight. Straight says, you know, hate mail, and he’s got a non binary partner. I’m like, great, just had to, you know, one up me. You guys aren’t as clear as we are? No, not at all. I love and support them. I think it’s awesome. I think it’s cool that he’s, he was able to, like, think outside of the box. And not like I said, He’s not that much younger than me to the point where I would expect him, you know, to be on a completely different wavelength. So to know, he’s just like, Oh, yeah, cool, whatever, you know, was so refreshing. And I look forward to seeing a generation were talking about this with my mom recently, I said, When credit couples meet each other, we usually ask two questions. How did you meet? And are your family school? Because those are the two main things that we encounter as a community. I think in general, when crew people meet each other period, even if you’re not a couple, usually like, Hey, is family cool? That question always comes up at some point. And I live to see I can’t wait to see a generation where that’s not a question. You know, where that’s not the majority thing that people think right away when I meet my street friends, I’m not thinking does their family accept you didn’t accept this relationship you’re in? Yeah, unless there was like an axe murderer or something. It’s just never a thought it’s generally speaking, you would assume they have a good relationship unless they tell you otherwise.
K Anderson 47:53
But I mean, in and it’s also like, you know, we’re talking about these extreme versions of things that happen in families where there’s a breakdown in communications and someone is forced to leave the family home and is no longer in contact or or supported by their parents. Whereas in reality, that might not happen. But there’s lots of small aggressive, passive aggressive digs over time that that still erodes relationship and still has a massive impact on the individual.
Hayden Winston 48:26
Right I to be perfectly honest, he does sort of like what I experienced when I said My home is great now and we’re all good, but I know in the beginning I had a lot of little challenging comments, misconceptions things that I had to help them overcome that was already difficult for me on top of coming out would have been nicer just come out to a family who was already had the acceptance built in you know, to a certain degree versus like okay, now let me explain to you what this means and no this is this does not mean that I’m going to do this yeah. Like
K Anderson 48:59
Yeah, I’m not gonna go on so on and a leather jacket. Of course not.
Hayden Winston 49:04
I’m not going to be in the next year and
K Anderson 49:10
my mom made me promise I wasn’t going to have been sags like what. No, she didn’t make me promise. But she was just like, I think it’s really disgusting. I don’t think you should do it. And I was like, No, of course I would. But like, of course I will. Of course I will. Right? Yeah. You want to do I
Hayden Winston 49:27
will tell you about it. Yeah. Well, you know what I think for my mom, what made her comfortable with me coming out was that I came out and was bi stuff. So she was like, Oh, you could still end up with a woman and then I married a man. So that’s not happening all the butts
K Anderson 49:48
off. But what if she’s still hanging on for like, she’s just waiting for your relationship to dissolve. Sorry, I shouldn’t bring that
Hayden Winston 49:56
up. No, she’s secretly hoping that like my relationship either dissolves or that I’m attacking. I mean, you know, it is what it is.
K Anderson 50:03
Why would your parents not want you to have like all of the joy all of the experiences, I just don’t
Hayden Winston 50:08
get it? Because they didn’t you know, they didn’t do a very rigorous thing.
K Anderson 50:13
Your mom and dad never did that stuff.
Hayden Winston 50:15
Oh, God. I don’t even want to get into that note.
K Anderson 50:20
If either if you are listening, by the way Hello,
Hayden Winston 50:23
I will say I know too much about my mom. What both my mom and dad now because now there’s so much older and they just feel like oh, we can just tell you a dog. And so I know so much about their sex lives now that I would not put it past them.
K Anderson 50:37
That you’re making it sound like it’s like a shameful thing.
Hayden Winston 50:40
No, no, in my mind, they’ve done okay, I just I’m assuming they’ve done everything and then they accept that their sexual abuse. And that that is the right, but I don’t ever want to think of the details.
K Anderson 50:52
Yeah. And like, yeah, if you’ve got a hole, you should find out what fits in there.
Hayden Winston 50:57
How it works. Yeah.
K Anderson 50:59
Although, although, can we talk about what’s the thing where you put the metal rod?
Hayden Winston 51:05
Nope. Sounding absolutely astounding. Okay, no kink shaming. I don’t believe in shaming I am for what everybody? You know, whatever anyone wants at any time. I also think that like with your partner, you should be really open to trying things they want to try.
K Anderson 51:20
Yeah, yeah. Okay. Just get to your point.
Hayden Winston 51:24
Being that like, No, absolutely not what I ever did. For me, we could never
K Anderson 51:31
I’ve Yeah, I mean, I never have, but I just yeah.
Hayden Winston 51:35
Would you rather fist or sound?
K Anderson 51:39
Like to be lifted? Or? Yes. I think I’d rather be fisted.
Hayden Winston 51:44
I was just gonna say it’s like, I’ve never done that either. But I feel like I would much rather encounter that than sounding because I feel like it’s like a once you comment, right? And once you’re like, dilated to a certain point, you don’t feel anything. It’s like, whatever, you know,
K Anderson 52:00
that applies in both halls, though, doesn’t it?
Hayden Winston 52:02
But you you either doesn’t really like that. It doesn’t like naturally, doesn’t it? A little bit I feel like on the inside. So like urine in like jizz can get out but not like it’s not doing it for object for insertion, Jared I mean,
K Anderson 52:17
whereas the but but but it’s
Hayden Winston 52:21
like the muscles open and contract and release in a way that like there’s no yeah, that’s not happening unless you’re shooting liquid out from inside your urethra
K Anderson 52:34
has to be something to it, though, right? Oh,
Hayden Winston 52:37
I think it’s probably the cold sensation of like the metal fever touch cold metal. That’s kind of like a weird, like, nice. Yeah. So I can only imagine that probably feels really nice. And then with most kinks. I think it’s also like the I shouldn’t be doing this type of it. That’s exciting, but I don’t know. Well, it does make Yeah, maybe being occupied. Like, like,
K Anderson 52:59
Yeah, I do have like a bodily reaction when I think about it. Yeah,
Hayden Winston 53:03
I know. I couldn’t do it because I was at the bar. So I’m like, Yeah, that would never be for me, but I totally I think it’s cool.
K Anderson 53:11
I think you clearly don’t think it’s cool because it’s not for you. But I’m like What about the people who get their penises split in half? That also not for me. That is so fascinating, right? I’d
Hayden Winston 53:25
rather do the tongue thing. Oh, I wouldn’t Yeah, the tongue splitting it’s still not for me but I if I had if it was like a choice between the two. I would much rather do that
K Anderson 53:35
even though everyone can see your tongue all the time.
Hayden Winston 53:37
Yeah. Honestly, if you’re gonna go wild get a Prince Albert. You know, like that’s as far as I think.
K Anderson 53:44
Oh, yeah. See, I think mine would just get like so rusty with Paris. Like how much cleaning do you have to do?
Hayden Winston 53:52
Well, I don’t know and I’m on cut so it would be a hassle anyway so I’ve
K Anderson 53:56
always said what Oh, is it whereas if you’re unkind?
Hayden Winston 54:00
I don’t know. I would think that you have to like, dude. I’ve never seen an uncut deck with a Prince Albert.
K Anderson 54:08
Need to need to come to the UK.
Hayden Winston 54:12
Yeah, where are they an anomaly here. It’s like I remember that in high school to having to be like, it’s fine. Most men in the world are having to like Google that and then come back and tell everyone you’ve never been here.
K Anderson 54:26
Like people would pick on you because
Hayden Winston 54:28
I mean not but like there are a couple of girls who make you know, turtle turtle neck jokes. Or you know, there’s a joke, but it’s funny because it’s like, haha, you still had it in your mouth. I don’t care. What differences that make to me whether you joke about it later doesn’t make a difference.
K Anderson 54:46
It’s really interesting. Like when you have your first game, your head is more sensitive, like so why are we acting like that’s a bad thing?
Hayden Winston 54:54
Well, it’s just lack of education. You know, it wasn’t until I got into like a community college class. Everybody when we’re talking, I was at the peak human sexuality course. And we like the professor put up like six or seven different penises, like six or seven different vaginas. And she’s like, these are bald.
K Anderson 55:14
Right? They didn’t bring the
Hayden Winston 55:16
pictures and she was like, this one curves to the left. This was to the right, some of you probably have, you know, downward curve upward curve. I mean, it was just jarring because like, you could see everyone in the room recognising themselves, you know, the agenda that they saw on screen, but also not wanting to say that they recognise themselves.
K Anderson 55:36
like doing a BuzzFeed personality quiz.
Hayden Winston 55:39
Yes, yes. But it was also very freeing and that cost got really inappropriate and loved it
K Anderson 55:45
back to lavender heights. Yes. Back to Back to the LGBT rainbow district. What would what would you call West Hollywood? Other than that name? Oh, wow. I don’t know. The queer quadrangle is in a quadrangle, can we make that fit?
Hayden Winston 56:07
I think it would fit because they don’t know if it’s in
K Anderson 56:11
Hayden Winston 56:14
Right, we’re just gonna make it a quadrangle now. Yeah, there’s no like, you can’t like like queer circle. You can’t you know, none of that really works. Boystown kind of did work it’s just a queer town doesn’t work. That feels like a
K Anderson 56:31
cute. Yeah, yeah. Why don’t you cool that? Because you can’t say you can’t be like the HOMO hood. And you can’t be right and Portage Avenue. Queer. Yeah, okay. All right. Well, maybe maybe the people that came up with the name LGBT rainbow district had these conversations. They were like, Oh, it’s too hard.
Hayden Winston 57:04
Yeah, they’re like, Look, just throwing the acronym. I mean, honestly, Rainbow just equity, kind of. I think they need to just lop off. If they just call it the rainbow district. I think that’d be fine.
K Anderson 57:15
Yeah. Who should we write to about that?
Hayden Winston 57:20
You know, okay.
K Anderson 57:22
Thank you. And so if we go back to rage, what? Like, obviously you haven’t lived in LA for a really long time. What was it like finding out that it was shutting?
Hayden Winston 57:36
Oh, so sad. I actually read it online because we were going back to LA to plan like a little visit with family. So I was like, oh, maybe we’ll go to West Hollywood and check out some of the spots I’ve been to in years. And I googled rage just to see as I was eating over, but let’s see if they have like a non union overnight or what’s going
K Anderson 57:54
on? Well, maybe I could be one of the guys and
Hayden Winston 58:00
just like throwing dollar bills that you know, men 10-15 years younger than me. And, but no, I like looked online. And apparently it’s closed due to unpaid rent, which was really sad. Because, you know, during the pandemic, a lot of businesses are hit with that same sort of scenario. So
K Anderson 58:23
what do you think rage taught you about yourself?
Hayden Winston 58:28
I learned that I wasn’t as odd as I thought I was. I definitely learned that the queer community is extensive and wide and that there are very, very old people and very, very young people in the community. And you know, I think it’s something that you know, they’re older gays, but there’s a lot of movies and media, right? Usually you see young gay people and it’s always depicted for young people. So if you’re young growing up in that kind of environment you kind of think like well, do we just age out what happens to old gays? You know, where do where do they go? And the answer is Palm Springs, right? Right. Exactly. Palm Springs, or Arizona they don’t have money but it’s nice to see a lot of them still out in the community you know, still around it was just good to be in a space where you didn’t feel other so I think reach kind of gave me that opportunity for the first time to know that okay, well, yeah, you might be other-ised in some other you know, sections of the city and portions of your life, but you can always come find community.
K Anderson 59:35
Do you have any memories from rage or from clubbing on your own cuisine that you want to share? Well, if you do, please get in touch. I want to create the biggest online record of people’s memories and stories. Go to law spaces podcast.com and find the section share a lost space and tell me what you got up to. You can also find On Facebook, Instagram and Twitter as last spaces pod. You can find out more about Hayden at his website Hayden winston.com. And he has just published a queer coming of age novel titled wild flowers. I’ll make sure to include the link to that book in the show notes for the programme. Let’s face it is not only a podcast, but a concept record as well. I have been writing songs about queer venues, and the people who used to live their lives there, and we’ll be releasing songs over the coming year. You can hear the first single well groomed boys, which is also playing underneath my talking right now on all the streaming platforms. If you liked this episode, I would really appreciate if you subscribe, left a review on your podcast platform or just told people who you think might be interested. I am K Anderson and you have been listening to lost spaces.