This week it’s my very first three-way interview, which I was absolutely shitting myself about beforehand, but which turned out good (well, you’ll see!).
Nana and Rose are the hosts of the Two Twos podcast, which they describe as ‘two black lesbians living in London speaking their unapologetic truth whilst creating a safe space for people like themselves and bridging the gap between LGBT+ people and cis-gendered straight people’.
We caught up to talk about Hidden, and more specifically a night there called Work, which was held every Wednesday night in a railway arch in Vauxhall, London, which Rose and Nana visited before they’d even met each other in the early 2010s.
Find out more about Two Twos by following them on Instagram, and on Twitter.
Rose 00:00
don’t like the word lesbians. I definitely like gay. Yeah, I don’t know the word lesbian as well. Oh, how common say I’m a gay woman. How can you like it’s so hard like lesbian? Like there’s no deeper meaning I wish there was but we just don’t like the way it sounds. It sounds aggressive.
K Anderson 00:23
I don’t think it sounds aggressive. I think it sounds like someone doing macro may in the 70s. Maybe like pressing some tofu in the kitchen, I guess sounds kind of a bit like a bit mushy. I kind of get where you’re coming from. I kind of get what you come. Hello, I am K Anderson and you are listening to lost spaces. The podcast that mourns the death of queer nightlife. Every episode I talk to a different person about a venue from their past their memories they created there, and the people that they used to know. This week is my very first three way interview, which I have to be honest, I was absolutely shitting myself about beforehand, but which I think turned out pretty good. Nana and Rose are the hosts of the two twos podcast, which they describe as two black lesbians living in London speaking their unapologetic truth whilst creating a safe space for people like themselves, and bridging the gap between LGBT plus people and cisgendered straight people. We caught up to talk about hidden and more specifically a nightmare called work, which was held every Wednesday night in a railway arch in Vauxhall in London, and which rose and Nana visited before they’d even met each other in the early 2010s. Do we just call them the 10s? I’m not sure.
Rose 02:26
Was it like it was a queer night in vauxhall? So it was mostly like black from the ages. I would say like it you know what it was supposed to be 18. But there were some youngers in there. They didn’t ask for ID so like, yeah, it was a different time. It was the ID
K Anderson 02:46
so when When was this? This? Well, I
Rose 02:48
started going in 2011. But I know that it was on before that right before I but I didn’t know about it until about 2012 2000.
K Anderson 02:58
So Wait, hang on, just hang on. Okay. I don’t want to be one of these like old people. Like what are you talking about? But like I did 2011 is not a different time. We still had Instagram then.
Rose 03:14
The queer law, especially the younger like black queer lot. Like maybe it was because it was just this. The venue was in some under a bridge like in this sort of like alleyway to go through this alleyway. So maybe, I guess for us it was like a different type. I don’t know. But I met because I spoke to my girlfriend like obviously when I met her like years later. And she told me that she used to go to hidden but it because she she used to only go there because they didn’t ask for ID so she wasn’t even clear at the time. She just Yeah, she just wanted a good night out. So that’s the place that she chose because they didn’t ask for ID so yeah. Do you know what you want? According to equate events? I feel like people are mostly using the queer word queer. Yeah, a lot more now than they did then. Is to me when I think about hidden I don’t think of a queer Knights. Even though it was I think about more. It was just a gay rave. I just feel like because queer to us, but it’s politicised. Now. How many? Yes, like a nuanced, nuanced word. So like, Yeah, but it was but there were boys. They were girls. Right? It was it was just a gay night, wasn’t it? Yeah.
K Anderson 04:28
So like, this language thing is so interesting. And I’ve had this conversation quite a lot recently about the use of the word queer. Yeah, and for me, I’m starting to use it just like as a shortcut to like cuz I don’t want to be like LGBTQ I just like I just say that and it’s really quick to get out. But there are other people who Yeah, who do use it in that political sense. And then there are people who just refuse to use it. And it’s, um, it’s kind of exhausting to keep up. You know, like, you know, I don’t want to pay anyone off. So I don’t want to use it like in any kind of context where it’s not appropriate. But I just wish that we could all agree on a word like, I’m down. I’m like, if someone else picks it, I’m fine. Let’s go. Never mind. It’s just
Rose 05:17
not things a lot of people do ask, what is queer now? What’s the difference? And these days before I to try and think about what the difference is, but I think like I was pretending to myself, it’s just it’s the same things. means the same thing. Yeah, I guess for me is like an umbrella term for it encompasses all of us. So that’s why I just use it as it as he said, like a shortcut.
K Anderson 05:40
Yeah. Yeah. Cuz it feels more inclusive than calling out all the different kind of sub categories of Yes. And you were also saying, whether you refer to as a queer night or a gay night, did you do use gay in that same sense as well, that it’s this kind of catch all term?
Nana 05:56
Yes, I think because when we say when we like, because obviously we’ve been we’ve been locked down for like a year. And we’ve been why we’ve been I mean, like,
K Anderson 06:07
Oh, I hadn’t I haven’t heard
Nana 06:14
we’ve been saying how much we miss like, you know, going out with the gays and we say the gays and that means everybody doesn’t Yeah, that’s it’s just the easy word. like where’s the shortcut for us? And I love it. I love the word gay. Like, I know if we’re talking about terminology, gays, for men, and then there’s been so straight for women.
Rose 06:36
I like the word lesbians. I definitely. Yeah, by the way, let’s be honest. Well, I’m a gay woman.
K Anderson 06:45
How can you just feel like it’s
Rose 06:46
so hard like lesbian like a pound pounds? There’s no deeper meaning. I wish there was. Just I like the way it sounds. It sounds aggressive.
K Anderson 07:00
I don’t think it sounds aggressive. I think it sounds like someone doing macrame in the 70s. Maybe like pressing some tofu in the kitchen. I
Rose 07:08
guess. I kind of get where you’re coming from. From there. I kind of get where you’re coming from. I might be an internal, you know, thing of that word. I think I think it’s just an internal thing. Maybe like I was eating, you know, when I was younger, we wasn’t like accepting ourselves and stuff. And lesbian was just like, nobody wanted to be a lesbian. Back in the day. Like colour wasn’t accepted. So now we just maybe we have a hangups when it comes to that word. Maybe.
K Anderson 07:41
So then, okay, so you started going there, like about a decade ago? Do you remember the first time you went?
Rose 07:51
I remember the first time I went. So I that was like that was actually my first queer event I ever went to. And I remember I was a union. I made a friend on Twitter. This was like I was needed for an interview because I didn’t have any gay friends. And I felt a bit lost and I wanted to explore. And then I made a friend. She was tweeted something gay. I was like, Oh my god, she’s talking
K Anderson 08:17
became friends. And she was like, Oh, you need to wait, Hang on. Hang on. Hang on. So do you remember what the gay thing she tweeted? Was?
Rose 08:22
I don’t I know something explicit. I know that her Twitter handle was smack my ass. And yeah, we follow each other. We got to talk in dm so that you know you should come to hidden and then it’s funny, right? Because the event was actually called work. But everyone called it hidden. Like if we just go to hidden the venue. And then yeah, the first night I went, I remember and I was still quite homophobic internally. I have to admit, I was so I went there. It was like an out of body experience. I’ve seen everything happening. And I was just like, Whoa, this is so different to my life. Did I say what? Yeah, it was it was crazy. The first time I went
K Anderson 09:08
okay, so did you meet smack my ass before you went in? Before I went in, I am always not late on the day today. What was that like? Where did you meet like did you meet at McDonald’s? We like we met outside the venue office
Rose 09:33
virtually well then like I mean, we we got to know each other because we went out quite a few as friends for like years after that. We’re not friends anymore, but we were friends even I was friends of smack my off to
K Anderson 09:46
think I’m going to follow her now. Still there but she doesn’t tweet anymore. Oh
09:54
yeah.
K Anderson 09:56
smack my eyes. If you’re listening So you were still kind of like dipping your toe in like so. Yeah. Was it weird to me another
Rose 10:06
queer person? And it wasn’t, it was kind of weird, but like, it was like, I was happy to be there. But at the same time, it was so new to me and so foreign, even, I just had never been around. You know, queer people like that. And especially a lot of them. I didn’t know that they existed like that, like, in those line numbers,
K Anderson 10:29
do you think? Okay, queer people like that?
Rose 10:32
What do you mean about like, like me like black? lesbian? I just never an evil like black gay men. I just never saw it. I never saw it in the media. I didn’t see it in real life. She don’t I’m saying so it was eye opening that night, you say like that, I think even comes down to even the fashions as well. Like, compared to a lot of the black gay raves. Now, a lot of people made a lot of effort then. And people were very expressive through their fashions. And for me, I think that’s when I went that’s the first one I noticed. And I never really saw black men in that crop tops. Yeah. String vests. And I just didn’t see it. And it was just so I remember, like, try not to stare. And because everybody was just in from two women does together and two men does it together. I never saw it before. Yeah, see? So I just try not to stay. I don’t want to seem like a strange or something in this place. But it was it was very fascinating. It was. Yeah, absolutely. And I remember they used to have like themes and stuff. Remember, they might have themes on the night so people will come dressed or like they have coulers in certain colours. So it was always really like to make an effort. And yeah, it was all that stressful. What if they pick a colour that you don’t have any clothes in colour? Yeah, I never really, you know, a good colour thing was a theme theme. Theme kind of a Halloween as herself. Before why roses, justice, Mario Superman. That was the base. That was the best.
12:10
It was good.
K Anderson 12:11
So so people were dressed in a way that you’d never seen before. People were like dancing together. And that was like that was new to you. And it was like in an arch. So it was like a big space right? What kind of music were they playing?
Rose 12:27
They played like hip Hartman’s or Ashman. So like dance or rap. Yeah, that back those kind of music. And it was like it was good times. And this was on a Wednesday. So like, at the time I was at uni, I was living in like greens park near Kingston. And I just go every Wednesday. And then the next morning, I didn’t wake up for lectures because I had like nine and I’m like, I’m gonna sacrifice my education for an amazing queer night out. And I did and I had fun, and I don’t regret what they had to go. Because even when I was the first time I went into, I wouldn’t have a stranger as well. I met somebody on them online, and I went with them as well. And it’s funny because I never I’ve never met up with that person since that day, but
K Anderson 13:12
sometimes a day like that
Rose 13:13
you didn’t know where they are like we had a good time. But, um, but yeah, I just I think it just goes to show that people were really looking for something like that and as mainstream as it was. Because I think before that a lot of the black wait events are very underground. And, you know, so for it to be quite mainstream. You can it was accessible. I think that’s what everyone just did what it has is to go and include the 15 year olds who are getting fake IDs as well, which are not even
K Anderson 13:37
bothering with an ID just wondering Can we talk about that? Because I think that that’s a really kind of common thing that happens with where people like finding some kind of random stranger online and being like, Can we go together like can we meet up and then you can give me the courage to go in? Yeah, I know. I’ve done that like so many times. And then abandon But yeah, I don’t really like you see Yeah, like you served your you’ve served your purpose. I feel like I’ve had the bravery to get in. But it is this. There’s just something really special about that kind of comradeship, comradeship. I don’t have any word I’m looking for.
Rose 14:24
It has to be. It has to be the word. I remember. There was a gal that I went to school with, and we were quite quite close, but then she moved to another country. And then when she came she came back I want to say around maybe 2014 around 2014 15 and she had never been to any queer events. I didn’t even know that she was queer. And she just randomly messaged me one day it was like Oh, can we go to this time it was bad bitches it wasn’t because by now he didn’t have to close down. So it was now by bitches was also in Vauxhall as well in the arches as well. And then she also She’s like, I just go to this event. And remember the things we weren’t even close friends like that. But it was just we had this comrades to go and went in there. She was doing things I wouldn’t normally do in a club. I was evenings that she wouldn’t do in the club.
K Anderson 15:13
Do elaborate.
Rose 15:17
When she was removing to the cows, it was just a bit cringe. I don’t want to be associated with this. And yeah, but I remember that the second time we went together, she left without me. She lives about me and in I met a girl that night and but I will end up waking up in the girls band The next day. Next day, but it was all because she left me behind. There were no earbuds then. 24 hours then as well. I had to you know,
K Anderson 15:47
I hate that when when your friends abandon you. Like she she wanted me in that moment when you’re like, oh, maybe they haven’t abandoned me. And you’re like having faith in them that they’re Yeah, like, they’ve got your back. And then it’s like, No, I’ve scoured the club. They’ve gone. Yeah. Someone told me. He’s gone. She’s not here anymore. She’s not answering her phone because she’s getting some. So none of that first night. We haven’t finished the story of that first.
Rose 16:21
That first night so yeah, it was it was a lot for me, like seeing like, you know, two women dancing and kissing and two men Datsun and kissing. It was as I said, I was still internally homophobic. So when I saw that I was just oh, wow, this is it was a lot, you know, and but I had a good time. You know, I had a really good time. And I mean, the girl that I met, like, we, we like we got on really, really well. It was weird, because like, when we met there was this, like, she had a girlfriend and her girlfriend was threatened by me for some reason. because me and this girl, the one I met on Twitter, we had this kind of like, I don’t know, it was kind of like an in, like, tense thing going on. But nothing ever, ever happened. She fancied up. She She always said she always said that I was nice. But like, she her girlfriend was always there was nothing going on by herself. always like, you know, squinting at me like, you know, side eye and me. And yeah, there was actually one time we kissed but it was for spin the bottle and there was just nothing there. Like there was like, like, it sounds like okay, now I know for real. Yeah, I feel like people will come into your life for different reasons. And like meeting people on the internet to get into the gay club is just was just one of them. Because, you know, it’s just, it’s just, it’s just a survival thing you have to do. And I feel like it’s a rite of passage, I think for the quiz. But yeah, that night was crazy. And I just kept on going back because it was like a drug. You know, like, I was in a world that was like, like, something beyond my imagination. You know, I’m saying and I just had to go back for more. And even though I was intending homophobic, there was it was, there was a duality there as I loved it. So I was just like, Okay, I’m, I have to go back and I kept going back. And
K Anderson 18:18
that’s, uh, how did that internal homophobia like manifest in the space? Like, were you just kind of like, no one talked to me, I’m just here observing or, like, what you like,
Rose 18:28
do you know what i like? I think I everything that I was, you know, at all my reactions, I kept them inside of me. So I’ve been I’ve seen people like insane and dance and like, I just maintains, you know, like that poker face. And I just didn’t let people see what I was actually thinking. And that’s how I maintained it. And so you were really thinking fuck
K Anderson 18:48
shit. Oh, my God. It was like,
Rose 18:53
in my brain, like my mind, but um, yeah, I just maintained composure, basically. So everyone was like,
K Anderson 18:59
what’s that stuck up girl? Did anyone try and talk to you?
Rose 19:06
I don’t I don’t remember. Probably not like I don’t. I feel like 10 years ago is quite a long time ago. I don’t remember. Yeah, probably no, actually. Digital. At that time.
K Anderson 19:18
Did you pick up the courage to dance?
Rose 19:20
I did. Because I was with my friends who I felt even though it was the first time me and her deal. I did feel a bit that it did feel comfortable with with her so Yeah, I did. I didn’t dance with anyone else. Just like you know, sway sway.
K Anderson 19:33
Did you like catch eyes with anyone? Or was it
Rose 19:36
not that time? No, I was still quite frightened. I feel like I was really scared like and it took me a long time to because I was naturally a shy person. So I took I am naturally shy person I’ve had to learn not to be but it took me a long time to get that courage up to even like talk to girls in the club.
K Anderson 19:53
Wow. Yeah. Okay, so segue quickly. I’m a naturally shy person as well and comes across in clubs. Just me being like really vain and so are you. Oh, you’re the same, okay, because I think there’s some people who get they’re like, oh, you’re really timid and shy. Let me look after you. And then there’s some people who get they’re like, oh, you’re a bitch.
Rose 20:14
Yeah, I feel like unapproachable. Like Yeah. It’s definitely relevant is the more approachable and the two of us definitely 100% until today, like people do approach Rosie more because you know, she just has a welcoming face.
K Anderson 20:32
Fuck you. Not Scotstoun, and I stop smiling all the time. Oh, so you’re like a, you’re the one that has to manage all of the really annoying people that like cloying and like, Don’t pick up on those signals that people are giving.
Rose 20:49
I think so. Same times, sometimes, like carving things I should be encouraging.
K Anderson 20:59
Okay, so I’ve got that out of my system. So Nana, do you remember them the first time when you did like, dance with another woman?
Rose 21:07
I remember the first time I spoke to another woman in the club, and I’m sure we did have a dance. And I asked for her number. And I was feeling quite confident that night. Do you know what it was as well, I think when I started going to those clubs, I wasn’t comfortable with the way I presented. So I wasn’t comfortable to approach women. So like, I think once I got comfortable with my parents inside, just in how I wanted to dress that gave me like that inner confidence. And then yeah, there was one night where that I think is the first night I spoke to a girl and I got her number. And yeah, we dated for a bit.
K Anderson 21:46
So can you demonstrate your pickup lines for us? Okay, what are you doing? Oh,
Rose 21:54
shit. I can’t believe you do this to be I’m fine. Okay, now, right. Behind that really good. Can I talk to you single? Just like that. And it’s mostly buffered me? Yeah. Mostly, it’s just eye contact. I think like people look at me, and they think I’m like mysterious because I don’t say much. But I’m not mysterious, that I’m quiet. And I think that gets them. So it’s mostly just eye contact that chemistry and vibes. And then you can say anything. You don’t have to be smooth. You don’t have to be anything. It’s just the eye contacts. That’s all telling you. It’s worked for me so far.
K Anderson 22:34
Okay, so I’ll need an eye contact lesson from you as absolutely, I’ve got you. Okay, and we took them about, like, the way you were dressing at that time. Like, was it was it that you were trying to conform? And then you realise that there was another way you could be?
Rose 22:53
Uh, yeah, I think like, during my teenage years, I tried to be more feminine. So like, that’s like the weaves and the hills and like when I went to uni, and well, like I lived with four other girls and so we were like a like a family and they’re all firm, and mostly straight. And so I just tried to conform and be like them and dress like them. And I wasn’t comfortable. And then when I started going to the clubs as I seen that, you know, people were expressing the gender in like different ways. And I was like, Okay, let me try this. I started exploring my like, how I presented myself how I dressed and started buying more like all quirky stuff, like they my friends and my girlfriend say I’m a hipster whatever.
K Anderson 23:38
What was that? What was that coming from Rosie over there? Tonight
Rose 23:49
Yeah, sorry. Like I started when like they will say that you know, I don’t wear Charles’s longer, like below my ankles. Basically, I always have to have like them rolled up. You do? Yeah.
K Anderson 24:01
It’s a good way to keep cool. Thank you regulate your body temperature.
Rose 24:09
Yeah, so like I just got I just got more confident when I started going to tip hidden work. And that my confidence is grew as the more I went to the to the club event, and I started getting more confident I started moving to to women in the club and you know,
K Anderson 24:27
using those pickup lines using the right I contacts. But you’d say you two didn’t know each other at this time? No. Ah, back to then. And you were on your own journey then Rose with going to the venue.
Rose 24:44
So yeah, I didn’t go as much as I wanted every week. I just went a handful of time. That’s because I had a baby in 2011. Oh, okay. Yeah, that’s
K Anderson 24:53
a fairly good excuse. Yeah, it’s not that much. But yeah, I had to go when I went. I had to go went away. And what was? What was it like for you to borrow a phrase? Was there any internalised homophobia for you at that time? Or?
25:08
Um,
Rose 25:09
I think there was, I think the Yeah, there definitely was some internal homophobia. And I was, I was very much because I had a baby denying who I was just because I wasn’t sure if I wanted to. People said, If I’m gay, then model is going to automatically be gay as well. And for some reason, I just believed what they were saying. So because I want her to pick her by herself. Okay, maybe I should just live this straight life. And it didn’t it didn’t last anyway. didn’t last, too anyway.
K Anderson 25:37
That’s really weird advice. Terrible.
Rose 25:39
It’s terrible. And yeah, so I was definitely I did have some of that internalised homophobia because a lot of things I was hearing, I didn’t have many queer friends only about like two queer friends at the time. And yeah, a lot of my friends that I had at the time were like, lifelong childhood friends. And they were just really stuck in their ways of thinking. I’m not friends with any of them anymore.
K Anderson 26:03
Yeah, that’s really tough. Isn’t it, like having to just accept that you’re letting them go? Yeah,
Rose 26:10
I by the time that we stopped being friends. That was like, a couple years coming now. And I was I had already like, emotionally and mentally tapped out of those friendships. So it was I think it was easier to let go of, than whether it was going to be some huge friendship breakup just over the years. It took his time. And he just yeah, then it was a step. Yeah. less less than less contact.
K Anderson 26:32
Yeah. And then, so not to pick solely on Nana, let’s find out about your flirting techniques. Where you, you know, we already know that you’re the more approachable of all three of us here. You know, absolutely. The girls approached under more than no one ever said that the girls approached them. That’s not true. What are you basing this on? Okay. Shall we do a listener poll? By now? Yeah. So why do you say that? They actually do?
Rose 27:15
I don’t know. I don’t really? I don’t really think that’s true. I just, I think they do. But you know what it is? Everyone knows I’m in relationship because of my family. I have a couple pictures myself online, where people know that none isn’t in relation relationships. He but she doesn’t post pictures. So
K Anderson 27:31
yeah, if we’re hot and sweaty in a club, and I see you on the other side of the dance floor, I didn’t know you’ve got a partner.
Rose 27:37
That’s true. It’s gonna be a stranger is a lot of time. They are strangers. Yeah. And it just gets approached more. That’s just what I’ve internalised. And
K Anderson 27:49
I feel like we need to do like some kind of social experiment to test. Yeah, we need to. I need proof. If only we could just go to a club and settle this once and for all. I can’t wait. I’m looking forward to going out again. Yes. I’m like, kind of terrified as well. Yeah. Yeah. Like, I think I probably it’s probably one of those things that I overcome quite quickly, like, I adapted quite quickly to just not leaving my house. So there’s no reason why I couldn’t adapt the other way. But there’s, I don’t know, it’s just like the thought of being in a really busy is just really foreign at the moment,
Rose 28:35
I think, as well, but I just I really want the vaccine. So once I get a vaccine, I’m just gonna be out here. I’m just gonna be enjoying, but I need that vaccine to feel safe. Because right now, I don’t really feel safe, go out and be in in big crowds. So I just say do you think it’s just gonna be like,
K Anderson 28:50
I’ve got the vaccine, let’s go.
Rose 28:52
I feel like there’s still I would hope that venues won’t allow as many people in anyway. I’m hoping that it’s going to be maybe that half the people that usually go should go. I don’t think it should be as much as like a vendor. Assa t now, even best with vaccine or no vaccine.
K Anderson 29:11
And then like, yeah, vibe is just totally different. is half the people there that I would feel safer. Yeah. Yeah. And like, I mean, you know, all that space on the dance floor. I am not saying no to that, but she still gets the ball quicker now you can get to the ball. Yeah. You know, that is the thing that stresses me out the most about being in a club or a bar is like, trying to get the attention of the bar. Yes. So stress,
Rose 29:43
I hated that before. I used to work in birthdays and Dalston. And there would be like, to free people at the BB and then they’d be like so many people wanting drinks, right? And yeah, it was a lot sometimes I just didn’t give eye contact. to people and they’re trying to get my attention because I’m there’s so many places.
K Anderson 30:03
There’s a pattern forming here, not just me.
Rose 30:16
But yeah, like, yeah, that’s what you saw his heartbeat about 10 but I’ll tell you that how we know why we don’t get given us eye contact now Why?
K Anderson 30:26
Oh yeah, but I just like okay, no worries. I just always feel myself getting more and more stressed when someone has just shown up get served before. Yeah, this is my pre drink mix. Here’s why a good one. That’s a good one. Yeah, they should just be like, some easier way to get it. Yeah, you know, like, how used to you don’t do it anymore. But like, pick a number when you went to the supermarket, you know, to be like, I’m this. Like, you know, just like, you know, have a number or something. But yeah, we should make it more British. Yeah. Um, oh, great. Yeah. Yeah.
Rose 31:09
So if some work, so work, work left hidden. It’s not been hidden. But eventually the bidding become a part of a bigger rave called urban world, which was in skyline Kings Cross. And then everyone started going to either bootylicious or bad witches, which is awesome, with less similar lines, but they’re actually they’re also in voxel as well. But then after an investment, if it became bit, Lisbon’s went there and the gays went there. And I don’t think I’ve really managed to get back since Why do
K Anderson 31:41
you think why do you think that is?
Rose 31:45
I think maybe it’s to do with who is promoting the events. So bad and also the name bad bitches? I think you’re not gonna be that big, but I just feel like people.
K Anderson 31:57
I feel like that appeals more to men, doesn’t it? I think so too.
Rose 32:02
It was a masculine presenting woman who was the promoter for that? I think they just assumed Okay, it’s for lesbians. It’s funny, because I really enjoyed having the guys around. Like I really, we had work, but we also had hvd witches, hustlers and divas felt like that’s quite a dated name, right. We were there all the time. I think it happened once a month. And we were there every time. And I enjoyed, you know, parting with the guys like so when the segregation happened. It was okay. And this is cool, but I still missed you guys. Yeah, the guys I feel like the guys brought something different as well, like there was so out there and just didn’t care who was around and like, they loved what they wore. They weren’t scared to like wear a crop top or do you know, I’m saying I’ll just wear something that was quite out then I just loved being around them. And yeah, missy. I
K Anderson 33:06
don’t like the segregation. It’s interesting, isn’t it? Because there’s kind of argues argues this kind of arguments for both sides in like, there is some thing Spetsnaz specials like a shitty word to use, but let’s just go with it. Like there’s something special about having that. Safer space. That’s just Yeah, like one one gender? Yes. But then yeah, it is kind of weird when you’re just like, excluding a whole group of people just yeah,
Rose 33:38
I think if when when all the events are like that, then it’s definitely a bit weird. And also, especially now, like before, when all these events were coming up, we didn’t really hear much about non binary people, even though they always exist, they’ve always existed. I don’t think their visibility has been as much as it is now. And so when you do that, you are kind of excluding them from these spaces, and even and even trans men and trans women as well. You do exclude them from these spaces. We say that’s for the lesbians. That’s from the gays. You know?
K Anderson 34:06
Yeah, yeah. Cuz even if you’re not explicitly saying, You’re not welcome here as a trans woman, if you’re not saying, You are welcome here, the trans women, then they’re left to interpreter and they’ll probably stay home. Exactly. But I mean, like when you’re in a single gender space, it is easier to pick up right under it. That’s not true. I had much better luck at lesbian bars picking Really? Yeah, but I think it’s because like they slit their pickings so slim. Any other man is like okay, sure let’s
Rose 34:41
Yeah, like we love like the gay event so much because obviously that there’s beauty and that’s just well no one says just for the guys, but it’s mainly guys that go so we love because we love hanging out with the guys we go but then there’s no women too. Well, that was before. We’re both in relationships now. But yeah, before there was no Okay,
K Anderson 35:04
your practice your eye contact. Yeah, yeah. Not too much trouble. Yeah, there’s just no women around. So it’s Yeah, it’s kind of a it’s kind of annoying. And do you think like that some of this segregation segregation? Yes. That was the opposite of segregation isn’t? That’s not what I’m trying to say. Do you think this kind of segregation has come about? Because the scenes expanded, like, so there’s more options, and therefore, there’s kind of more ways of niching down?
Rose 35:35
Yeah, I think what’s possible as well, I feel like, because, like, you know, when we started going out, there just wasn’t a lot. And so like, when you have a space, it has to be for everyone, because you just put everyone in like one group. So you can just kill birds, you know, on birds at one time. It’s just easier to do that. But now you we have, we have watched, we’ve lost what we had in the beginning. And I know, like, we can never ever, you know, get back what we had, because it was novelty. It was just it was that newness. Like, we’re not going to get that again. And it’s nice to look back on it like as nostalgia. But at the same time, I do think that we are missing part of that. And that is integration. And you know, I feel like everything is sort of more refined now. And I missed the ratchetness. Like, I miss it so much. Like it’s all just refined and kind of PCM boring. What’s the drama?
K Anderson 36:33
Yeah, the drama. It is weird. Isn’t that like, because we are moving into this kind of weird. We’re in the midst of this kind of era where Google knows so much about us, like, all of our data, like, this is getting conspiracy theory sounds like, yeah, like, there’s all this data about us out there. There’s all these ways in which people can tailor things specifically to our needs. That it means that there are no happy accidents. There are no like, Oh, I’m just going to put this on. I’m just going to try and see if anyone comes along. And I’m gonna like put a glitter cannon over here. And we’re gonna drop some balloons over here. And they’re like, yeah, let’s just figure it out as we go along. There’s none of that. Because everyone’s just like planning everything to the
Rose 37:20
Yeah, that’s so true. only think about that. Because we, me and Rosie in two hours, we have a we have a collective and that we manage events, right. And so we like that you say, and that is so true. Because when we’re having events, we’re literally thinking about every single detail. But I imagine like back then when we started going out, it was just like, yeah, let’s just we needed some special DJ, and sell to sell tickets. And that’s it. But now it’s like we’re thinking through every single detail. Like how can we make this unique? How can we make this different and all this stuff? like yeah, that’s an I miss the simplicity of of those nights. There are no more sad things to bring you back to basics. Yes, that would be spaced, I put in my mind. I’m thinking right now. darkspace, DJ ball, lots of swings. Let’s go for it.
K Anderson 38:10
I’m there. I’m there. And let’s say your your paths never crossed.
Rose 38:17
No, because we were we were at the same events. You know, hidden work. We were there that we were both there. But our paths never ever crossed until we met in 2015. And we met via my friend and her ex was they were dating. And that’s how I that’s how we met. So we never met those.
K Anderson 38:37
Isn’t that like, isn’t that so? Cool? Weird? funny to think about? Like you were there at the same time? Yeah, run
Rose 38:46
into each other. It’s weird, because like some people, I will meet some people and I’ll recognise their face and be like, Oh, I see this person they might didn’t know them. Or and vice versa. Or somebody will say, Oh, I saw you at this event. But we didn’t know each other then I mean, now we know them. And but even even in those events, I feel like it was there. Were also like cliques as well. There was this bunch of people and this bunch of people wouldn’t really they wouldn’t match sometimes.
K Anderson 39:15
What were they what would they like unique traits of those different cliques?
Rose 39:20
Or you have cool ones you have cool got coupons that everyone knew the popular ones. It was some school school playground wasn’t cool as well.
K Anderson 39:30
So which cliques were you to? And then
Rose 39:33
I was definitely misfits. Definitely. Even though I was very, it was very awkward.
39:41
I’m done.
Rose 39:44
I feel like I was in the group. There was a group that will had been gay for time for like forever. You know, they knew they were gay when they’re five. So I joined three because I met the girl that girl on Twitter, and she was she had a group of people that she went to the gay clubs with, and that just so happened to be Great Bible, so I didn’t fit in because I knew I was gay when I was like, maybe like 50 Well, yeah, about 1415 some people knew from like, you know, one years old.
K Anderson 40:11
So, so was that group like looking down their nose, everyone else? Like, I think I felt like forever. And you guys
Rose 40:21
there were some people in the club like that, who in the club, you come in and obviously, like, when I started going to the club, I didn’t know who I was, I was, you know, people look at me at work, they you kind of because everybody was in a sort of everyone had label everyone was in the category. It was fam it was starts, you know, masculine or feminine. And, you know, I didn’t really fit any of that. So people were just confused. I think that that’s what it was. Yeah. That’s why I was a misfit. Yeah.
K Anderson 40:52
So those those terms, those kind of subcategories are really interesting. Do you do you think that they are kind of more exaggerated now or that they’ve eroded a bit?
Rose 41:04
I think that they have eroded because of this new queer term now. And I feel like this queer term allows people to be whoever they want to be and present how they want to present. And obviously that includes, you know, the non binaries not so it just like it’s just more like open and more free. So I definitely feel like that I felt like the old heads the ones that knew they were gay from birth, or the ones that started Raven from young they’re kind of still I think, more so like the 45 Plus I still kind of still in that mindset where they’re very much attached to the terminologies his dad famines, very restrictive. But for us, I feel like we’ve we’ve let
K Anderson 41:46
that go. Definitely. Okay, so So tell me if I’m going too far with asking why this isn’t that far, but let’s say one dating on dating apps and stuff to people say I am looking for a firm or I am looking for a birch who like a star dog. They don’t
Rose 42:04
say that but it’s assumed so like if you’re a start is assume that you’re looking for a film. cuz I’ve been on dating sites a long time. Like I don’t know what does he do? You know, like, What is going on? Yeah, some people do some like I wouldn’t say the more masculine presenting people do it. Because everyone just assumes the like femmes yeah with the more feminine girls 100% that some of them put stands only for a fam. Yeah, a lot of times even if you like try to message you might have matched or something you’ve messaged them and then they tell you Oh, no, I like films only I don’t like stars. But you have some people that just don’t mind as well. So
K Anderson 42:47
yeah, so like in the men’s hit well grinder this you know, this is called and there’s this kind of there’s now more of a like, fuck you for fam shaming me all I’m fuck you for kind of saying I don’t want this this. This this kind of Is there any of that? And in the I was gonna say let’s be good. But you hate that word.
Rose 43:20
You think nothing. There is more like pushback, I guess. Because there’s a thing like in our community, like where it’s like, oh, if your study can’t date another start. You know, there’s all these unwritten rules. And I feel like it’s only now that we’re starting to move away from that. So like, and I think we mean, Rosie tried to encourage it as well. Like you did date whoever you want, like and there’s no shame in you know, two studs day and the two masculine present in women dating. We definitely try and move away from that. So I’ve seen but as I said, it’s more of the queer light. I think the old hands are still on that shit. Oh, like is
K Anderson 43:59
and just so we’re clear. You think anyone over 35 years old?
Rose 44:08
50 or even 60? Okay, like, okay, yeah, maybe not. On The Scene longer than some maybe some because 45 is definitely not old.
K Anderson 44:26
Okay.
Rose 44:29
Find the answer. 20, please. Yeah, exactly. You know, exactly. I’m just thinking about the people that I met when I came on the scene. And there will be obviously a few more like years older than me, but then
K Anderson 44:45
just yeah, just came out in a different era. And so, so at the end of the interview, I asked like a bunch of cheesy questions. So if you’re like, if you’re good for that, we can Yeah. What did work teach you about yourself?
Rose 45:10
It’s funny because it taught me to. It taught me freedom. And it taught me to be myself. But at the same time, because of the people that were there, and they were quite judgmental, I feel like sometimes Yeah, the community can be quite judgmental. You know, it’s a few other people in the community. So there was both of that it taught me to be myself, but it also helped me explore. And to be free and to find freedom, because I just like, if it wasn’t for that night, I don’t know where I’d be such a, it’s such a weird thing to say, I know. But like, if it wasn’t for that night, I could be, I could still be in the closet. I don’t know. Like, I just that night was the beginning of like, sort of the rest of my life as in like, you know, in total living my truth. So yeah, it definitely taught me freedom, because as I said, Before, I was internally homophobic. And it kind of just like, it kind of just like, made me helped me drop all those those things that I had learned, you know, that I had learned from family and friends and school and stuff. It helped me get rid of those, you know, those thoughts? So, yeah, freedom, freedom. But, but like, are
K Anderson 46:25
you trying to say at the same time, like you were moving away from the people in your, like, the opinions of the people in your life that Yeah, against that, but at the same time, you were coming up against other opinions within the
Rose 46:38
Yes, yes, yes. Yes. And that’s the thing is very, very hard. Because it’s, it’s, you know, you because because you’re new to that world is like, you still got remnants of the old worlds on you. And you’re still trying to navigate this new world. And it’s sort of like, yeah, you have to sort of unlearn and become who you are. But at the same time, when you’re coming into that new world, people are asking you that, who are who you are, because you still got, you know, the old stuff on you.
K Anderson 47:09
So yeah, and there is like this as this kind of temptation to just conform or like, yeah, to just be like, oh, okay, well, you know what you’re doing so I might fit myself into this.
Rose 47:20
Yeah. And we did. We did do that. But it wasn’t the right fit. And then we know, we also learned that along the way, yeah.
K Anderson 47:27
Yeah, so interesting. And so Rosie, same question.
Rose 47:32
It taught me about what friendship should look like. Because a lot of people that I met, and I would end up speaking to them about who my friends were and stuff like that. And they will just always tell me, like, friends are meant to be encouraging friends are meant to be embracing of who you are friends she didn’t like necessarily deter you from your, your core and who you are, basically. And I don’t think that if it wasn’t for me going to these events that I would have been able to see people with people who accept them for who they were and everything like that, and say really did. Yeah, it just made me open my eyes a bit more. And also, it also as Funny enough, made me become a bit more a lot more creative as well. like seeing everybody with different fashions, and seen everybody just being very outlandish and stuff like that. That 100 of sin encouraged me to become more creative and embrace that side of me before I was very. I was very mathematical and logical before. So yeah, so yeah, that definitely caught my creative side and just understand what friendship meant. Yeah.
K Anderson 48:40
Did you ever go to hidden? Well, if you did, I would love to hear from you. Get in touch through Facebook, Instagram or Twitter with the username K Anderson music and tell me your stories. share any photos, just give me a good sense of what the vibe was like there. And whilst you’re at it, make sure you follow the two twos podcast on Instagram, their profile name is two twos podcast, and on Twitter. It’s slightly different. It’s two twos underscore podcast, and make sure you give a listen to their show as well. La spaces is not only a podcast, but a concept record as well. I have been writing songs about queer venues and the people who used to live their lives there. And we’ll be releasing songs over the next year. You can hear the first single which is called well groomed boys, and is also playing underneath my talking right now on all streaming platforms. If you liked this episode, I would really appreciate if you subscribe, left a review on Apple podcasts or just told people who you think might be interested in giving it a little listen to I am K Anderson and you have been listening to lost spaces.