“Where Were All These Gay Pubs When I Was A Kid?” (with Charlie Sayce)

charlie sayce

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Self confessed pop culture expert Charlie Sayce, creator of RuPaul’s Drag Race UK Fans, and host of God Save the Queens, a drag race review show on Glitterbeam Radio, is this week’s guest. And he’s taking us on a trip back in time to his uni days in Worthing, a small seaside town in the south of England. It was here that he found the only gay bar in town, the Jack Horner. Despite it looking like a generic old man pub they played Britney Spears, had dodgy karaoke nights, and gave him an opportunity to explore his identity.

Charlie Sayce  0:00 

I remember walking in and seeing that all the hot guys serving like topless and was like oh, what’s this? This is uh, this is this is interesting I quite like this bar this is a bit more my vibe I think.

K Anderson  0:12 

Hello, this is k Anderson and you are listening to lost spaces, the podcast that mourns the death of queer nightlife. Every episode I talk to a different person about a venue from their past, the memories they created there and the people that they used to know. This week’s guest is self confessed pop culture expert Charlie Sayce, creator of Ru Paul’s drag race UK fans and host of God save the Queen’s a drag race review show on glitter beam radio. We caught up to talk about his end of uni days living in Worthing, which is a small seaside town in the south of England. It was here that he found the only gay bar in town. The Jack Horner were despite looking like a generic old man pub, they played Britney Spears had dodgy karaoke nights, and gave him a chance to explore his identity. But before we get into the episode, I want to ask you a question. What was the first gay bar that you ever went to? If you’re listening on Spotify, you can answer this question within the app. But if you’re not on Spotify, get in touch with me anyway, find me on most every social media platform as lost spaces pod or get in touch through my website, la spaces podcast.com I really want to know where people are listening from and where your first queer experience was. Alright, let’s get into the episode

Charlie Sayce  2:14 

you know, my first like, gay memory, just like a really weird thing to think. But I remember being in primary school and playing kiss Chase and thinking I’m on the wrong team. I don’t really I don’t want to chase the girls and kiss them. They’re like my friends. This is weird. But when the boys come over who I don’t really interact with them, like kissing the girls. I remember thinking, Oh, I’d rather be doing that. And that thought I kind of like always weirdly been there with me like, oh, maybe there’s maybe there’s something I need to explore there. I don’t

K Anderson  2:39 

know. But it was one of those thoughts like that was not at the front of your brain. Somewhere. It was

Charlie Sayce  2:45 

under a glitter curtain somewhere. Like in a box full of like feather boas and, you know, it’s like, creeping away.

K Anderson  2:54 

That box been opened like it’s safe to say Yes, right?

Charlie Sayce  2:57 

Oh, yeah, definitely. Yeah, the box was full on open. Yeah, no, I think that once I kind of like started like investigating that side of myself, I felt so much more comfortable so much more myself. And quite interestingly, like recently, when I’ve been doing this stuff associated with drag race, a few people that I’ve known from, like my passing like yo, Vaughn Worthing that I still have like on Facebook, a lot of them have kind of contacted me or message me and be like, Oh, we’re so light. It’s so exciting that you’re involved in that show, and you just seem like so much more comfortable with who you are. And I don’t think I realised that I was repressing something, even though I was, you know, I mean, I just thought I was going around my normal life and kind of being myself, but actually, I hadn’t really fully opened up and being who I was meant to be. It’s so

K Anderson  3:41 

hard to know, isn’t it? Because at that age, like, I think you just think that you should be miserable. Yeah. Everyone else is pretty miserable. So like, yeah, that makes sense that I’m miserable. Except that they’re, they’re just kind of weird.

Charlie Sayce  3:57 

And you don’t, don’t see like you really don’t see like on TV and films like gay relationships. And I think like, you do, they’re tragic. Yeah, they are tragic. Or they’re, you know, they’re people who are there to be kind of laughter or mocked or that kind of thing. You know, I mean, it wasn’t, you know, so I think I just always fought like, that wasn’t an option. You know, I mean, like being younger and being into feminine things. Like, you know, it was the classic we’d get presents at Christmas and I’d want to play at my sister’s precedence. I wasn’t interested in what I was getting. My mom used to smuggle me Polly Pockets, you know, you know the toy. So my dad was like a proper like South London geezer and my mom used to buy me like Polly Pockets and be like, oh, you know, that’s for you. But when dad’s around, like maybe play with the other things, so, you know, he was typical way to football and he got a ballet dancer. Like that’s kind of how I see it. And so my mom would like to smuggle me these like kind of more girls toys and was very accepting and much more let me kind of be myself when I was growing up. Then Then I could around him, you know,

K Anderson  4:54 

but so did it ever like Did he ever find out? You ever use it against you like well

Charlie Sayce  5:00 

She no she never used it against me. I think once she confiscate it from me like her baby camper van toy, because I’ve played with so much and I remember

K Anderson  5:08 

really baby camper van sorry a Barbie. Oh,

Charlie Sayce  5:12 

sorry. It’s like a Barbie camper van and she was like, Oh, you’re not like that anymore. And I remember really like, like kicking it down the stairs over Christmas and being like, Oh, whoops, it was on top of the stairs like having this real, like angry moment of I want to play with the camper van. And but no, like, you know, as I’ve got older and you know, I think my dad’s attitude has changed as the world’s kind of changing I mean, and we he’s fully like accepting of who I am. You know? I mean, there’s no no kind of qualms or issues, which is lovely. I’ve been very blessed. There’s not really anyone in my family who hasn’t kind of accepted me for who I am. And I think that that was like a non negotiable thing because it’s like you either accept me or I won’t be in your life anymore. That’s kind of our wasn’t prepared to not be not be me. Once I got there. I was like, I’m never never going back that that’s

K Anderson  5:58 

so interesting. That I mean, sorry. I say that’s interesting, because of the contrast between like, not knowing and being so tentative. Yeah. And then when you got to that stage, just being like, now, man, this is it.

Charlie Sayce  6:12 

That’s it. That’s it, because I think that was probably like, my subconscious going, you could have been a lot more yourself as a teenager and not kind of hid behind other things because you were repressing it. And, you know, I feel like it was just once I really got there, and I open that door. And you know, had I remember, like having my first date with a guy and like, the first time I slept with a guy, and I was like, there’s no going back from this now like, this is this is, this is what I want. There is no going back. It’s

K Anderson  6:41 

a bit more. Usually people’s first experiences are awful. And wow, for quite a while. Yeah, sounds like that wasn’t yours.

Charlie Sayce  6:51 

The the experience itself was a drunken experience of a guy who was quite a bit older than me at the time. And probably still is, and probably still is. Yeah, well, ROM hope he is. And yeah, it wasn’t like the most fun experience because it was it was just kind of marred with confusion and like, Oh, have I done the right thing? Like, is this really what I want to do? Like I was holding myself back quite a bit. And it was, it was an odd experience. Like I say it was it was a real quick, like, meet up, do the deed and go. And like for your first experience, you kind of want it to be a bit more like a bit more loving and emotional, perhaps. And with someone you kind of trust a bit more. But you know what, I think I just kind of wanted to such a bad analogy, but break the sale. I just want you to like almost like just be like, well, well, let’s let’s do it. And then if it isn’t what I want, I might know afterwards. And I remember reflecting on it and being like, okay, it was a bit weird, a bit drunken, maybe a little bit sleazy for a first time, but at least it was like, okay, but I enjoy being in the moment with a guy and kissing a guy. And you know

K Anderson  7:57 

that Yeah, totally. You know, and like, you know, from my own experience, I remember when I was a teenager, like buying all of that kind of heteronormative crap about, you got to wait for the one you’ve got to make sure it’s special. And then I was just waiting so long because no one wanted to like be my one that I just had to fall. I was like, no, no, no, no, it’s just, you know, I’m far less socially awkward than I was. Yeah. So I just got to this point where I was like, just I just have to do this because it’s something that I want to experience and like, yeah, it doesn’t have to be perfect. But so you met him on Grindr. Not Grindr. Gaydar. Yeah. So what happened? What was your name?

Charlie Sayce  8:39 

Oh, it was electroheart because I was like a really cool kids like I was like I’m electro heart on or like, Oh, no. So and that’s just like a really old email of mine and I probably shouldn’t be voting. Pretty some some hidden gay growing gaydar Grindr email sitting in that account somewhere. Geo cities. I think I was at hot now I think. Yeah, it was a hot Electro hot@hotmail.com That was, that was a choice. That was one of the emails where you know, you have to go into the real world and like, start applying for jobs and shit and like, electro ha. And so yeah, I remember I you know, I literally I was in like, my dorm room and I think I drank like a bottle of red wine and just went on there and was like, chatting away to guys. And this guy was literally like, Look, I’ll come and pick you up and he picked me up. We went back to his we drank more. Yeah, we did the thing. And then he was pretty much like, okay, like, I’ll call you a cab, and I was like, Okay, bye. And then it was like within what felt like probably about an hour’s getting the cab and I was back in my dorm room. And it’s like, wow, like that was yeah, it was weird. It was really weird and but oddly, you know what it didn’t it didn’t like put me off like I don’t know it just felt like okay, cool. Well, that that that’s it and the next time hopefully it will be

K Anderson  9:56 

to do you remember then the feeling like being in your dorm room, like coming back, and like, what were you processing? What were you thinking?

Charlie Sayce  10:05 

Oh, I guess I was, you know, there was a little bit of like worry as to like, or have I been safe? Have I made sure that you know, that side of things have been taken care of, and kind of like, because I had had a few drinks being like, right. And I’ve I definitely made sure that bit kind of happened, which it has, thankfully, and then very much like, that felt a bit cold. And the whole thing was a bit like, oh, and probably, unfortunately set me up for quite a few years of that whole culture of just drinking and one night stands and that kind of vibe. But the actual act itself and being with a man, another man, like it didn’t feel wrong, it felt really nice. And it may have been a bit short and sweet, but at least it felt like or I want to do that again. You don’t I mean?

K Anderson  10:49 

Yeah, absolutely. So was there was there any sense of like thrill or, more or less impractical and a

Charlie Sayce  10:56 

bit like, obviously, it felt a bit naughty, and a bit like, Oh, God, like I’ve done that thing that I’ve maybe been thinking about for quite a few years, like, especially like growing up as like a teenager and stuff and when you have like your own sexual fantasies, and for me, it was like, always kind of like men and women, there was never, you know, the man part was, like, always there. And it was like, Oh, I finally like, done that, you know, I mean, and, but I think he’s just, I probably did the same thing that I feel like, at least in my friendship group, a lot of the guys kind of did and it was like that it was a bit of a drunken one night thing. But it was okay, cool, but I’ve done it now. And now I can actually maybe look for more like the relationship side of things, which I didn’t really want for quite a long time. It took quite a while to actually want to have like their relationship vibe. And

K Anderson  11:39 

also you knew so you knew that you didn’t want to miss your relation Yeah,

Charlie Sayce  11:43 

I was Do you know what I think because the ratio would have with with my ex girlfriend was very intense. And it just felt like I didn’t want any of that side of it for quite a while I just wanted to be able to enjoy myself and have fun with it. And you know being knowing that I was moving to like Worthing and like a lot closer to Brighton at this point. And being like, well, Brighton site, you know, like the gay capital of the UK. Like they’ve been plenty of fish in that sea. And it just felt really like that was that was what I was looking for for quite a long time before. I was more interested in like the relationship side of things.

K Anderson  12:13 

So it was kind of like putting your life on hold because over here is something super excited. Yeah, so don’t rush it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So living in Worthing living in this sharehouse being the mother. That knows maybe my words and not know

Charlie Sayce  12:30 

my definitely definitely mother heading. There was a Sunday rose fives like 100%.

K Anderson  12:35 

Oh, yeah. Oh, so firstly, were you out to your flatmate?

Charlie Sayce  12:43 

Yeah, I had come out to my, my mum and like my immediate family after that summer. And whilst I was back home, I went back on the old gauge, are you noticing a pattern here? And I met this guy who lived in Ashford, which was not far from my family’s home in Kent. And we used to go into Asheville, every Wednesday to do shopping in there. And this guy was a dancer and he was beautiful. And he messaged me on gaydar and I thought he’s well out of my league. So I didn’t really like I wasn’t really getting involved. And I felt like obviously, like very small city vibes, people just messaging everyone. So I didn’t reply to this guy. And then he sent quite a few more messages. And he was like, Oh, I think I saw you in Ashfords. Last week with a with a lady and you were both shopping. And obviously that was my mom. And I was like, oh, yeah, you might have and he was like, Well, why are you not messaging me back? And I was like, Oh, I didn’t know I thought like maybe I’m not what you’re looking for. And he was like, Well, I’m messaging so I’m looking. And I was like, okay, cool. This guy was very confident and I was like, Well, next time in Ashford, why don’t we go for a coffee? So whilst we were in Ashford, I had to say to my mom, like when my friend’s sister was a friend right? My friend told you about him I’m sure I’ve mentioned my friends. I’m sure I know what you have never said that name before and I was like he’s gonna be an ASHA so I might go meet him for a coffee and my mom was a bit like okay like okay obviously mama very close and because I’ve been at uni for quite a while like the son was like our time you know, I mean and I was like I’ll be about an hour and I’ll be back out I met this guy and I really liked him like very very quickly he was like the kind of guy that I was looking for and I remember we were in our should which is I’d say a very

K Anderson  14:23 

wasteful hang on like let’s before we get to ash Yeah, let’s paint the picture what was the type of guy you were looking for? Oh,

Charlie Sayce  14:29 

he was really pretty Can I just just really oh that was that was just really pray like really pretty. He was young attractive. He was he was a dancer so he had lots of pitch flexible great body flexible and just was very interesting as well. Like he was a bit weirdly quite like closed off like wouldn’t tell me too much about him which just made it more exciting. It was like oh, I don’t really know a lot about you, but I want to and yeah, that was that was kind of weird. It was really exciting for the first time I’d had like, a crush on like a real life guy.

K Anderson  15:05 

So okay, so, so pretty.

Charlie Sayce  15:08 

Yeah, absolutely. He was like the David Beckham wall poster come to life. Do you know what I mean? I was like, Oh, this is exciting. And so yeah, I, we started hanging out. And I remember used to, like, sneak off around this church in Ashford to like, have a quick, snug, and it felt really naughty, because it felt really like a bit dangerous. You know, I mean, because, you know, there was a lot of, you know, kind of rough and ready teens lurking around Ashford, you know, I mean, it was very, it’s very, that kind of vibe. So this felt really exciting. And like, it’s like an actual guy who’s like, name I know. And, you know, that’s a change. That’s nice. And, and yes, I was

K Anderson  15:48 

not saved in my phone as a

Charlie Sayce  15:52 

guy with the pink curtains in the picture, though. And, and so I remember saying to my mum one night, like, How can my friend come and stay? And it was like, obviously, she was like, Yeah, your friend can come and stay. And it was, it was weird. Like, I know, you know, I know. We know. But we’re not going to have the conversation. Yeah. And then he did come and stay over was very respectful being in my mom’s house. I mean, not really much happened, a bit of kissing and all that. But I was like, No, I’m not. It just felt a bit like I’m in like, my, you know, like, my teenage bedroom as well. Like, when you go back home after uni, you feel like you’re under the mums rules. Again, that kind of vibe. So I was like, Let’s be good. And then yeah,

K Anderson  16:26 

but you were also a horny teenager. Yeah,

Charlie Sayce  16:28 

I know. Right? It was it was difficult. And it was no churches to sneak round. So I have that cheeky snark. And then I remember, I went down in the morning for like breakfast, and my mom looked a bit upset. And I was like, Oh, God is happening, that we’re going to have the conversation. And she was like, Cool. Like, don’t, don’t take me for a fall first stage. And I mean, like, if this person staying over, if that’s a romantic thing, then we need to have some rules in place. And I was like, God, I’m fucking 21. Like, please, this is too much. And then she got really upset. And I thought she was upset because of me and who I am. And it wasn’t, it was a complete opposite. She was like, I’m just so scared that you won’t be able to hold your partner’s hand walking down the road without being judged. And that really hit a nerve with me. And I was like, wow, she’s not worried about the fact that this is who I am, she’s worried about how other people are going to treat me, and that I’m going to be treated differently. And I’m going to have to kind of fight against, you know, people’s bigoted ideas and morals and that kind of thing. And that was really, like, it was a real moment in me. And my mom’s like, relationship and friendship and we hugged it out, we both got really upset. And I was like, listen, Mom, I was like, you know, I’ve, I’ve been called every name under the sun. You know, I mean, like, I I’ve got a very, very, very thick skin when it comes to this kind of thing. And I’ll always be safe. You know, I mean, I’ll always be aware of my surroundings. And that’s probably the main stage even till today. But I really liked this person, and that is who I am. And she was like, I don’t care about that. She’s like, you know, but just, you know, I want you to be able to be in a restaurant, your partner and hold hands. And obviously, this is before, like civil partnerships and all that kind of vibe. And, you know, I think it was more that side of things that was difficult for her, which was a real life blessing relief, to be honest, just scared.

K Anderson  18:10 

Yeah, it. I, you know, I had very similar conversations with my mom about this kind of thing. And as I’m getting older, I can appreciate more the perspective that she was bringing to the conversation and why she had those concerns why she had those worries. But I know at the time, I was just like, oh, fuck cake, like, can you not just let me be me? You’re not just say like, Oh, I’m just really happy that you are. Yeah, and I think I held a lot of that resentment for a long time in like, because it’s kind of because it’s kind of victim blaming, right? Like, that’s maybe not the right term, but it’s kind of being like, Oh, I wish this was in your life, because your life is going to be so much harder. And rather than like, the world is packed down. Yeah. And I’m really sorry that that’s gonna happen to you. It’s like, I just wish that this wasn’t happening. And then you’re like, well, so I have to Yeah.

Charlie Sayce  19:05 

I remember saying is a real struggle being fabulous. And my mom’s always remind to be that. She’s like, it’s such a struggle being fabulous. Isn’t Charlie, and, you know, no, but you’re absolutely right. I just, I knew it was just more that she just had that idea of, oh, I’m going to be out in public and someone’s gonna say something, but I was like, it doesn’t matter because people are always gonna say something, you know, I mean, there’s always something to be said. And you’ve just got to learn to not take it to heart and I’ve learned that the hard way, but I’ve learned it and now it’s like, I’ll come up with something original. If someone shot something original. I actually find it really amusing. You know, I mean, obviously, I’m lucky. I live in that Brighton bubble. You don’t get it very often. But you know every now and then when you’re somewhere and you hear someone say something and if it’s original, I’ll always give them like a round of applause like I’ve got heard that one. Yeah, that’s fucking brilliant. I love it.

K Anderson  19:53 

So what do you have example?

Charlie Sayce  19:55 

Oh, my God. Someone said something the other day. Who was really? Oh, do you know what I remember? So I remember being in London actually. And I was in my height of feeling my fabulous like 20 year old self. And I was like really striking down a road. And as I went past this woman, she just went, he dropped some chips for that mince. I was like, Yes, I fucking do. I’ll have cheesy chips as well. Thank you. That’s always been one of my favourites

K Anderson  20:30 

to that woman. So this isn’t an important question. But when you were having this conversation with your mom, was this going in the other room?

Charlie Sayce  20:40 

He was? Yeah, he was still in bed. He was still in bed. I know. I know. It’s really awkward. He was still in bed. And then and then. And then I remember like, I went back upstairs. And he was like, are you okay? You were like quite a long time. And I was like, I think I just come out to my mom like, and he was like, Oh, she didn’t know. And I was like, Well, I think she knew, I think we just haven’t really said it out loud. And he was like, oh, that’s fair. But I was like, Yeah, it’s pretty fab. And then we just, yeah, we just went about our day, it was really weird. Like, I mean, listen, I’m really lucky and very blessed and privileged that, you know, like, a kind of coming out story was like a conversation in a kitchen that didn’t lead to any sort of like, you know, bad ill feeling or breakdowns of family relationships or ostracization from your family. Like, I’m very, very lucky. So I say it very lightheartedly. But I’m also fully aware that I’m incredibly blessed to have such a incredible family that just accepted me for who I am. But like I said earlier, I just don’t think I gave many people a choice. And it was like, Okay, if that’s the case, then, you know, I don’t know if we can be part of each other’s lives. And it’s just that kind of like, that’s just how it needs to be for me to kind of get through I think,

K Anderson  21:44 

did you actually lose anyone? No,

Charlie Sayce  21:47 

I didn’t like I say, I mean, I’m sure there is the odd, odd family member that might say the old thing here and there when I’m not in earshot. But, you know, more, I think there was, you know, the odd people in your past that, you know, you may work closer to and then they see that you’re this kind of different person and they fall by the wayside. But you know, what, they’re, they’re not necessary then to my to who I am now and what I do today, so I was Yeah, I was very, very, very lucky. Did you? Okay, I know, I’m probably only to turn these questions around. But no, no similar experience.

K Anderson  22:20 

Well, yeah, like I Yeah, so I had the same thing of being like, wow, this is just who I am, sir. Blah. And I don’t know, to pinpoint it to that one thing as hard as it could have been just for any any reason that it happened. It could have just been like, Oh, we’re just not close enough. To each like, wouldn’t like yeah, physically, we don’t live close enough to each other. So we just stopped seeing each other. Yeah. And we just forget about Yeah, like, it could just be anything. Yeah, I don’t think there was anyone who was like, Do you know, I just can’t accept your Yeah.

Charlie Sayce  22:52 

And it’s, it’s really hard. Because like, when you when you start finding your tribe, like, especially for me, once I got to Brighton and started spending more time in like, the LGBTQ venues and stuff like that. And then you meet people, and you kind of hear their stories, and you’re like, wow, I think that’s when I realised how fucking lucky I am. Because you hear some of the things that they’ve gone through in, you know, the unacceptance they’ve had to deal with, and then you it makes your own story, like, even more like, God, I’m just really blessed. I’m just really, really lucky that that’s, that’s the family that I came from, that the love is more important than who you are spending your life with, or what you’re doing with other people, you know, and I think it’s something that we always have, like as LGBTQI plus people, and that’s why I can never understand why people from our own, you know, extended family hate on each other, I’ll never understand. Because we really have come from, we’ve all come from that shit. You know, I mean, and found who we are and come together and now you want to make each other feel shit. I’ll just, I’ll never ever ever understand that.

K Anderson  23:54 

It’s yeah, it’s depressing. It’s really it’s a waste of energy as well. Yeah, just it’s Yeah. Yeah, the other thing I was gonna say is like, I think sometimes you engineer your life in that way that right, like, I had always been myself. Maybe not always. But you know, like, those bits of me came through quite evidently, until I think that everyone in my life had an opportunity to get used to that. Yeah, if they weren’t into that, they just didn’t have anything to do with me in the first place. Yeah, yeah. So it’s hard. Like I’ve never I’d never did that thing that some people do, which is like, playing the game and people pleasing. Yes. Doing what’s expected of you, and then getting to a point where you’re like, oh, by the way, everyone, I’m not that sad. I think it was jarring for anyone to find out.

Charlie Sayce  24:51 

Yeah. I read this really like, like, it sounds a bit like all those bumpy formation things. But I read online the other day and it really like resonated And that was you can be a good person of a kind heart and still tell people to fuck off when you need to. And it’s like that energy like you can, you know, there are moments we had to be like, No, I don’t want you in my life. And you know, you’re not, you’re not helping me anymore. I’m not helping you anymore. We’re not bonding anymore. And, and that may not be because you’ve come out because of who you are. friendships and related change as we grow up as well and get a bit older.

K Anderson  25:23 

But like, you know, extending that phrase and taking out the swearing, you can be a good person with a kind heart and still like, have people hate you like, yeah, it’s just life. And yeah, you just should not waste your energy on those people. But I mean, that’s easier said than done. And I’m not trying to be like Jerry three months and then kick them out.

Charlie Sayce  25:50 

Yeah, that’s very true. Especially like, 4am when you can’t sleep. What did I say wrong? What did I say wrong? Like,

K Anderson  25:57 

yeah, get to the point where you are so exhausted. Give up on that friendship.

Charlie Sayce  26:05 

Sound Advice? On a t shirt, put that on a t shirt.

K Anderson  26:10 

You might have bags under your eyes, but you’ll get so what happened to flexible Ashford man?

Charlie Sayce  26:19 

Oh my god. Wow. Yeah, yeah, his name was actually Ashley as well. So we’re not far off. And he was all the drama, like, like any of those kinds of people are the non emotional, they don’t give you a lot. The reason I’ll give you life because they’re hiding many skeletons in that closet and ended up getting quite dramatic and being really full on. And when I had to go back, obviously to university to go back to Somerset, it was very much like, well, if you go, then we can’t carry on because I’m not prepared to come there. And I don’t want to long distance thing and I just for this and he’s beautiful. He’s really beautiful, Charlie, he really, really is. But it’s not worth this aggravation. And for me, it was like that I’m going back to you over and I had to deal with going back to obviously being in the same place that my ex was obviously that at all gone like a bit towards the end. sighs I can’t carry that with me as well. And then he just kind of fell off the face of the earth. And I guess, yeah, that that’s where that ended. But for

K Anderson  27:17 

me, it’s like remember his surname? And shall we look?

Charlie Sayce  27:20 

Oh, I think it was Vashi I have you know what I how I think you know, there’s nights of like the red wine nights where you’re like, I’m going to do about Facebook stalking. Try and find this person. And then if everything if anything turns up. I was like, No, this is not a door worth going down again.

K Anderson  27:38 

Do you know what I have actually forgotten the name of my first boyfriend? And so yeah, well, I mean, like, I know his first name is Adam. Right? But I can’t. I can’t for the life of me remember his second name? And that’s such a blessing. Yeah, I can’t do any like, like, I’ve gone to all these, like creative ways of like, trying to figure out how to find him and I just find him and it’s the best. I mean, yeah, like what difference will it make if I know what he’s up to in his life? But it’s yeah, I’ve every now and then it’s like, oh, yeah, I used to go out with that.

Charlie Sayce  28:17 

I always feel really sorry for the people who have a horrible X who gets famous because then they have to see that x everywhere. Like can you imagine being James Corden’s X and being like, oh my god, I can’t stand that person like a shame. Like, yeah, the shame would be so bad already. But then you’d have to see that stupid face in every fucking film. Every TV show like yeah, I always feel so hopefully, if any of my exes are out there don’t any of you get famous because I don’t want to see your faces ever again. You

K Anderson  28:46 

don’t write a song called Charlie. That becomes a number of

Charlie Sayce  28:50 

various areas. I’d be like royalties, royalties.

K Anderson  28:53 

You could dine out on that. You could you

Charlie Sayce  28:57 

really could. That’s true. I mean, Adele’s Adele’s exes must just be like, Oh, God, we just writing her another album every time we break up with her like they must have a little committee. Like how much do you think you’ve made Adele this week? I’ve probably made about $3 million.

K Anderson  29:13 

She’s just got to think of new ways to get dumped. That’s the pressure she’s under.

Charlie Sayce  29:19 

Very, very true. It must be a very hard life.

K Anderson  29:24 

So okay, so Ashley’s out of the picture. You’re back in Yeovil, but then you’re not in Yeovil because you move to Worthing and then you’re living with a bunch of people and then you go to Jack Horner

Charlie Sayce  29:33 

and then we go to the jack horner. Yeah, I remember we we there was another club in a in Worthing, there was a really trashy club by the train station. And a lot of the students went there for like they’re always why they always by train stations is hilarious. And you know, I think it was called Easterns something along that vibe and I remember being there one night on why they’re like student nights and dancing and having like time my life but it’s all very straight. You know? I mean, and you’re like, you know, it’s good. But it’s and I remember like chatting to some random girl in the smoking area like you do and being like, Oh, where are you going like artists and she’s like, I’m going to the gate pub. And I was like, sorry that what? Sorry the What? What? I didn’t get this memo I didn’t get this what we talking about? She’s like, Yeah, that’s like the gay pub in Worthing. And she’s like, it’s not open late so we’re gonna we’re gonna head there pretty quickly. And I was like, okay, cool. Like, I’m going, I’m getting my things I’m coming with you. And it was, you know, all respect if anyone I still know that works there. It was a dive pub, it really was a dive pub, right. But I remember going in and there was like this little bar, the pool table in the back a tiny little stage where probably some crazy drunk person was doing karaoke, and cute people behind the bar. And being like, Ah, this is it. I love this. This is like, I feel like I can relax because I quite like that old man pub environment. I’m quite into that. I feel like there’s a familiarity that I really know about that’s being a South Londoner, I think deep down like, I like an old man pub. And. And just being like, this is really cool. This is really like this. No, people like super dressed up. There was no kind of like, fancy lighting or any of that kind of stuff. It was just people sitting and chilling and enjoying themselves and avoiding listening to that matter of normal karaoke. And it was, you know, I just thought, wow, this is really cool. And then we stayed there for a couple of drinks. It was lovely. And then literally the next night I was like, I’m going there. Like I’m not even doing the Mad dancing place. I’m not into any of that I want to go

K Anderson  31:34 

for waiting for them to move in and storming in.

Charlie Sayce  31:38 

That’s exactly I want to get I want to get prime seat at the bar before the other people turn up. And I have made some really lovely friends like kind of outside of the pub itself, just from my housemates and then meeting new people because they’d started a new turbine. Our house was a very social house, it was very much people coming over and one of my friends friends, he, he was a bit younger than than us guys. And I remember he came over one night and was like, Cool. Can I have like a chat? And I was like, Yeah, of course she can and who I was like, oh, like Livi the go. I was like, she’s not hearing that. No, no, I want you to talk to you. And I was like, okay, cool. I was like, he’s really cute, but cool. And then he was like, Oh, I think I’m I think I’m gay. And I was like, oh, okay, I was like, well, that’s cool. I was like if I told anybody else and he was like, no, no, not yet. I don’t really, like know what to do. And I guess I was coming across at that point in my life is a bit more confident and was very open about the fact that I like guys and wasn’t like hiding anything anymore. Never had a boyfriend. I was permanently single. But I was like the most single phone game ever met. That’s how I felt. And I was like, Well, look, why don’t you come with me to this pub. And he had lived in where they like his whole life was like, oh, no, like, we say don’t go in that pub. Like they what they done is they created this really seedy reputation for this place, because it was the only gay bar there. And so what they done is like almost a bit of a smear campaign and said, like, oh, no, you don’t. That’s for like the weirdos. You know? I mean, and I think that a lot of gay pubs, especially in smaller towns, they get that reputation. Like don’t go in. Like, it’s weird in there. You know? I mean, and I remember my

K Anderson  33:11 

head on you as soon as you walk in. Yeah, I wish there were bars like that. Yeah,

Charlie Sayce  33:16 

I thought that’s what the gay does for not that hard. Like, that’s where you want to be going. And we ended up kind of going, going to the jack and we met, you know, there was obviously like some, you know, like older gay guys who were living in Worthing and it were going and that was like their regular part. But and what was really nice about it is okay, there might have been the odd snog here and there, some things may have happened. But on the whole, it was very, it felt very, like wholesome and felt very, like, actually, they could tell that we were to kind of younger gay guys. And we’re just trying to like, kind of find our way in the gay world a little bit. And there was lots of for all the nights of like, mad karaoke and getting on the pool table and lock-ins there also lots of nights of just going there and sitting and chatting, and having a few beers. And, you know, for us, it was normally the prelude to like going out that night and getting in, you know, getting on the train to Brighton and coming having like our mad nights out, but I always like looked forward to that bit, really more than the going out and getting really kind of like off the tree, you know, I mean, because it just felt very, like it was being able to have conversations, I think that was the main thing. So I didn’t really have that in my life. I didn’t have anyone in my family that was gay that I could kind of chat to or any, like older friends that had kind of maybe been through some stuff that you could talk to. And

K Anderson  34:31 

so specifically, you’re talking about that those kind of intergenerational conversations.

Charlie Sayce  34:35 

Yeah. 100% and, you know, not even people that were necessarily that much older than us but just obviously lived in a town where there was like this, you know, almost like this hub where they could go and meet other people and talk about it and feel relaxed in that environment. And you know, like, where do like going into a pub and they’re playing Britney Spears is not ironically, is because they actually liked the song. Like all these little things that you feel like oh, you just it just felt very Very comfortable. And yeah, it was just it was a really fun time. And it was it was like any excuse to kind of like oh well let’s just go let’s go down the jack and it was yeah I’ve really I’ve really really enjoyed it it was just it was really nice to find people have conversations and feel like you could be yourself and you could get on karaoke and be a bit flamboyant and silly because you didn’t feel like you were going to you know get ya get caught or get even abused or have any trouble lead from it, you know, I mean, and I remember the time you being there like obviously some you know very like heterosexual people would walking and you know, you wouldn’t you couldn’t help yourself but you finally be able to be that we can give them daggers Ah, how the tables have to do you know that maybe

K Anderson  35:40 

you did? Sexual?

Charlie Sayce  35:43 

Oh, the clothes baby clothes come on. They weren’t listening to Britney like they weren’t listening to

K Anderson  35:50 

her. Like we didn’t know the words to Lucky. They didn’t they didn’t come

Charlie Sayce  35:54 

in deem that oops, hand movements. So we knew no, I just you know, you could tell when there was like a kind of group of lads that were kind of stumbling there, like not realising maybe the vibe of the pub. And I mean, obviously, all welcome. And that was what was really nice about it. But there was, you know, I remember a couple of incidents where there might be a little bit of trouble and instantly, you know, the whole pub would rally and it’d be like, No, our we’re not tolerating any of that here. You know, I mean, I do remember I remember being there one night when he got egged, and that felt really, yeah, it felt really horrible. It’s a really, yeah, it was horrible. And it was really opposite, like a massive supermarket. And these kids are just gone and got eggs. And we were, you know, I mean, obviously, you’re in the pub and music’s playing that kind of thing. But I just remember seeing them running past and all these pick the window. And it was just felt really sad. It was like,

K Anderson  36:42 

this is our one space. Yeah,

Charlie Sayce  36:44 

this is the one space you know, I mean, and I think it was one of the things where we all just didn’t talk about how sad it was. It was like, Oh, that was annoying. Let’s clean the windows, stupid kids. But inside we all felt how that’s really shit. You don’t I mean, that’s really shit. Like, we don’t need that crap. There’s enough shit. Just let us sit here and have a drink. You know? I mean, without having to deal with all that horrible world out there can be really horrible.

K Anderson  37:08 

It’s kind of weird, like punching down thing, right? Like, it’s like, oh, no one’s gonna be really nice if we do this, because everyone hates those facts anyway, so let’s just go and do it. Absolutely. Yeah,

Charlie Sayce  37:19 

absolutely. Like, you know, there’d be no putting in a report about it or find out who those kids were like, nothing would get done nothing. And it was very much like I remember the landlords at the time saying like, I’m not wasting my energy because I’m not going to get anything out of it. And they still felt like a safe space. That was what was really good about

K Anderson  37:36 

and so you were talking about not really registering when it shut. When did it shut?

Charlie Sayce  37:43 

Oh god, I think it was like two I think was 2012 I believe. She did close. And then it reopened in 2015. No longer as a gay bar. It’s it’s now called the corner house, I think. And it’s yeah, you’re kind of like you know, no disrespect to the lovely people. I’m sure the corn house I’ve never been there. So I don’t know fucking corner house bitches seriously. It just is another generic wedding pub, as far as I’ve seen. So, you know, that whole thing now has gone and you know, I haven’t been back to worthing in quite a long time. I don’t know if there’s now an alternative kind of like space that was similar to the jack that might have sprung up. But not that I saw not that I’ve seen or heard of. I mean, we’re not far from Brighton. And you know, in Worthing, it was always that thing of like, you know, when you’re not that far from a place I think like you know, Manchester or London has a good vibrant kind of gay scene you do I think find that the spaces around it do slowly disappear because people more congregate in those big city spaces. And that might just be what happened to the Jack,

K Anderson  38:50 

I’m going to ask you this question. And I recognise this as like a stupidly big question and that you couldn’t possibly have the answer. So if you don’t like or have an opinion or anything, then that’s absolutely fine. I’ve just ruined the question by over explaining it sorry. Do you think that we’re ever gonna see small town gay bars again?

Charlie Sayce  39:14 

I don’t know. You know, I think a lot as well I think a lot of people get those interactions now probably from online and it’s obviously not the same thing. But you know, a lot of people I think doing the world of the like rpgr UK fans the Twitter and Instagram and Facebook stuff that I do associate with drag race a lot of people go on social media now and go I’m looking for my tribe. I’m looking for people that are into this and into that and if you know someone can you like me and add me and follow me and does it and they probably create their own little chat groups and joke around what they’re creating is online gay bars, and they’re all probably you know, kind of doing it a lot more virtually. Now. Now. I’ve lived in a big city Brighton for the past 1516 years, so I haven’t been in that kind of small town community for a while. Interesting enough. My family live in New Romney down in Kent. And I went back there to see my mom and sister to see a show in Folkestone. I don’t know if you’re aware of Folkestone. Down, yeah, down on the coast. So we were focusing to see this musical theatre show, okay. And we were in the queue to go into the venue. And I saw this like, quite like pumping looking pub opposite, with lots of outside space, and it had a massive disco ball. And I was like, Oh, my God, like, that looks really cool in there. And my sister was like, yeah, that Skuba that’s the gay pub. And I was like, a gay pub in Folkestone. Where were all these gay pubs when I was a kid growing up as a confused teenager. And she was like, yeah, it’s always been a gay bar, Charlie, like, I’m sure I’ve told you that. And I was like, No, you have never told me that. Unknowingly, we had to go into the show. Because I was straight away. Like, I want to go in there. Like, I want to see all those people that took the piss out of me in school are probably sitting in that gay bar now. And like, I know, you were mean to me, because you were gay as well. You couldn’t stand the fact that there was another gay and that’s why you probably were really horrible to me. But I feel like yeah, probably in a lot of in small towns that are kind of like gay pubs, gay spaces, and they are kind of maybe springing back up. I mean, obviously, you do this show quite a lot. And in your experience, I’m guessing a lot of them have disappeared and golden. Is that the general consensus?

K Anderson  41:14 

Yeah, yeah. So there’s two things that I want to respond and I need to make sure I don’t forget the second one, when I start with the first one. The first one, this whole thing about people who were horrible to you, when you were a kid who are now gay, or who are now like, yeah, everyone should be proud and free. Like, I have a real hard time reconciling that. I’m about like, fuck you. You’re not allowed to grow. Yeah, I apologise.

Charlie Sayce  41:40 

I want reformations. Yeah, no, I’m with you. 100% 100%.

K Anderson  41:44 

How do you do?

Charlie Sayce  41:45 

Well, do you know I had, I’ve had like, a couple of different mix experiences in this like field. I’ve had one where someone who will absolutely remain nameless, because I wouldn’t want to kind of out someone that’s not what I’m about to bury. It wasn’t buried. No. wasn’t buried. No, no, no, no. And who messaged me kind of more in recent years on Facebook, and was like, oh, you know, the conversation started really generally. And just like, oh, how are you NYC? We’re in Brighton now. And I see you have a partner and all this and then went a bit more. Like, oh, I, I kind of wish back in the day that I’d said something like, I wished I’d like kind of like made a move maybe. And I was totally like, shocked by this. I was really blown away. Because this was not a person who I thought it was any way, like, in our way inclined. And I kind of was like, well, that’s, you know, obviously, like, it’s flattering and really lovely. And I was like, Oh, are you with someone now? Are you like, you know, have you like explored that Soviet? And it’s like, Absolutely not. Like, I think what they’ve done is they’ve kind of reached out to me as like one of the only like, gay people they know who they could, like, have a conversation with and I find that really sad. You know, it’s really, and you know, you try and do that thing of like, I’m not hearing

K Anderson  42:56 

everyone’s gay mentor. Yeah,

Charlie Sayce  42:59 

I know, it’s a bit like gay mentoree. But you know, I’ve really don’t have time to be everyone’s gay mentor, and the gay rule the gay, the gay rights. And, and, you know, I was, you know, I’ve been very polite about the whole thing, but I remember being really shocked by that. And we like, wow, like, I did not expect that from from that person and wasn’t necessarily someone that gave me a hard time. But within that group of people that had given me a hard time you feel very, like

K Anderson  43:22 

I was doing nothing is also like as bad 100% I’m

Charlie Sayce  43:25 

like, Well, where were you with your I want to, you know, do things with boys when I was like, but, you know, we all go for our own journey. I mean, hopefully that person will figure it out for themselves and all that kind of vibe, but it is, it is weird. And then you have the ever experience where people might pop up from the past and comment on something that you’re you’re tagged in like, whether it’s dressing up a Halloween, or we know stuff that I’ve done with like drag queens or stuff like that, and they’re like, Oh, I knew that was who they were like, and they said what you mean by that? You knew that’s who I was. And it’s like I knew you’d be like kind of one of them type five and you’re like oh fuck off like you know I mean it’s 2021 seriously like are we never gonna but they are the people with no disrespect to anybody out there that is from a small town that have stayed in those small towns and have that kind of like small town mentality you know that one race like it just they they’ve never really grown up and changed

K Anderson  44:12 

and and what are they trying to achieve by saying yeah, I am that

Charlie Sayce  44:15 

while I am that way in the pink week frantically around fucking deal with it, you know? I mean, like, it’s having a great time.

K Anderson  44:21 

Fantastic. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, um, I get what you’re saying. And I agree with it. And my head agrees with that. You know, people have their own journeys people change. People make mistakes. Yeah, but it’s just that that raw child in the middle of my core, that’s just like, No, no. You’re just Nah, that’s it.

Charlie Sayce  44:49 

That was that great scene, queer in Queer as Folk for the UK version, Queer as Folk where he gets the guy, the main guy like his school, but he kind of comes on to him and he like rebuffs him. He’s like, No, not interested. And then like, a couple of months later, he sees that same school bully in a gay bar. And the school bully is like living his life into religion. And he gets up on the mic phrase like, he shouldn’t be allowed in this space. He put me through hell, he’s not a true ally, like, and I just was like, I want to be that moment, that character, like, No, you don’t get to be in this space. You don’t get to celebrate with us. You don’t get to listen to Lady Gaga or learn the dance moves, you thought that you should have been, you should have been supportive when we needed it.

K Anderson  45:30 

The other thing that I wanted to say when you were talking about like people finding their tribe, and isn’t it funny how like everyone talks about their tribe? It’s like five years ago, no one talks. But anyway, that’s a that’s a by the by Yeah. When people are looking for their tribe online, the thing that’s different from I mean, other than it’s a virtual space and not a physical space, is that you’re not in there with people who have different worldviews than you. Because you’re so like, Yeah, that’s true. Like what you’re looking for, you’re looking for, you know, this kind of person who like yes, and he lives here. And so you’re not having those small town experiences where it’s a pub, where it’s like, well, there is one gay bar, we’ve got no choice. We have to go to this place. Yeah. And that guy, there is really Yeah. I’m gonna have to learn to like, yeah. Yeah, yeah. As you’re talking about, it’s like, oh, I prefer Raja to to

Charlie Sayce  46:25 

Katya. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

K Anderson  46:28 

I mean, people, people make conflict out of that, but it’s not really a conflict. Yeah.

Charlie Sayce  46:32 

100%. And I think you’re right, it’s when when people that are going to the same thing come together, where’s the conversation going to go other than talking about the thing, they all came there to talk about. So it’s not the same experience as, like you say, being in a pub in a real world environment and, and living it because one of the things that was really great about that is that you would have the odd person who you couldn’t stand and no show without, they’d always be a regular as well. And you have to do that. Hello, hi. Hi. You know, I mean, that was my fine. And I had a great day. Lovely. Oh my god, we both been here three hours. I didn’t realise, you know, I mean, that that type thing. But that’s, that’s exciting. That is interesting. Do you know, I mean, it’s like, oh, God, I bet we’re gonna go there. And he’s gonna be sitting there. Like, I’ve basically been our table, you know, that thing that table like? And you always bump into them, like, and the bar, you know, and you’re like, both ordering a drink and you lean into order. And they’re always be like, next year, you’re like, Oh, now we got to do the real high. Oh, how should they be like, I hate you. Not that I hate anyone. I’m very passive.

K Anderson  47:37 

Like you learn to like, just exist with other people that you can’t stand, which I guess you’re not really doing in the same way in those spaces with your tribe. And I’m doing the inverted commas everyone. Yeah. Yeah, tribe thing I find really fascinating.

Charlie Sayce  47:54 

It’s interesting. It’s, it’s, like you say it’s a word that’s kind of come up out of nowhere. I mean, we I get a lot like obviously the fandom you know, we get that with, with the drag race vibe, or you’re just the fandom and then what annoys me about that is that you’re just saying this whole group of people are going to have the same mentality. Like, I’m sure there are people in those tribes within a tribe that probably do have different opinions, but to stay within that group, they probably keep them to themselves. And that that just, I’m not, I’m not into that, you know, I mean, I don’t I don’t really enjoy that. I quite like to be challenged to have different opinions. I think that’s really important. And, yeah,

K Anderson  48:32 

I’d like to do that, when it’s not actually talking to each other, when it’s words typed in, like, I find that really hard, because my sense of humour does not translate. Just like anyone who’s interacted

K Anderson  48:56 

do you remember most from those days?

Charlie Sayce  48:59 

I mean, there was back in those days, there was a lot of drinking involved. So it was not really a lot. No, I think what I remember the most is just just that feeling of being like, I’m in a, I mean, a safe space is a word that also gets thrown around a lot with words like tribe recently, but that genuinely felt like a safe space. And I think that was just the first time in my life that I had you know, experience going to a safe space that I could go on the regular you know, I mean that it wasn’t like a one off like, you know, being like young and partying and you go to like fun fact things that J why in London and stuff like that and be like, Oh, wow, this is amazing. And like, coming over to Brighton and going to revenge that was always like, wow, this is like really exciting. But this was the first time there was one that was like, on my doorstep with people who I got to converse with and get to know and just that feeling of, I want it to be there all the time. It really was I was just like, couldn’t wait to like, you know, get back from uni or get back from work or whatever the situation was, get changed, get dolled up and go down there and just sit there Be like, I just I feel really relaxing, and really at home at home in a space that like, like that old man pub vibe that I’ve always felt quite uncomfortable in. I think that was what was quite entertaining about it as well for me, because, you know, that whole like stream of vibe, you know, I mean, it’s like, suddenly I was in what looked like a straight man pub, but they were playing the Britney, there was guys behind the bar, we were, you know, we were chatting about silly things, and being at ranges and being silly and being flamboyant, and not having to check ourselves constantly. And that just felt really amazing. You know, I mean, it really was, and I’m really lucky that I got to be there. During those, I think what quite like golden years for that place. And it is a real is a real real shame. That’s not there anymore. I remember when I first went to Worthing and saw that it wasn’t, you know, it changed his name to the stage. And I went and saw it as a stage. And unfortunately, we closed on that was like a Monday afternoon. And they were obviously not doing great. They were trying to you know, didn’t think at pubs to where they close certain days. And I was like, really got it like, oh, we can’t go in there. And then it must have been a few years later when we went to wedding again. And suddenly it was just all gone. And it was just this really generic looking pub, and it was just like a bit of a heartbreak moment. It was like, Oh, that’s really like that’s gone now. And I don’t have many photos from that time. Because you know, we’re still back in the days of normally camera phones and all that so you didn’t, you know, so it’s really like, it’s just all in here. And that’s really weird in this day and age because everything’s so like, snapped on a computer screen slapped on a phone screen, you can relive it straight away, meaning Facebook’s constantly reminding you what you were doing 15 years ago, you’re not I mean, but those memories, they feel a bit more special because they’re mine. You know, I mean, and that’s what’s really nice about it. Yeah, I mean, like really, this is like the first generation to grow up with social media being an instant part of their, like, their childhood, their teenage years, and I don’t think we really have seen like, maybe that the ramification what social media is gonna have. Yes, so fuck, so fucked up. Honestly, you know, where I work. I work with a lot of like, younger waiters and waitresses, that kind of thing. And I someone’s I hear them talking. I’m like, wow, like, the conversations. They’re having a just like, above and beyond my head, because I’m like, you’re talking about really intense stuff. Like, you know, everything’s very, like everyone’s self aware now, like, everyone feels like they can kind of brand themselves like and it’s like, when did we start talking about that? When did we start talking that we were IKEA products I was this is my brand. You know, I just find that whole mentality really strange. And that would have been like, snapped out of you in pop star Jack Horner. What you mean your brand? Shut up, have a drink? Do you know I mean, like that, that maybe they’re missing out? Do

K Anderson  52:33 

you find that fascinating, that whole branding of yourself and how limiting that is? I just I find it really limiting anyway, maybe other people don’t because they’ve only got like one interest and so therefore it fits their brand. But like this multi dimensional person who like you know, likes construction and drag race, like you kind of have to decide about one part of your life. You kind of have to do this. You have to have to lean into this. Yeah, sure. You look a certain way. Yeah. And that all a bit stifling a bit. Yeah. Yeah.

Charlie Sayce  53:09 

It’s, it’s quite sad. It’s the you know, like, branch out, chill out and relax. You know, I mean, and just

K Anderson  53:15 

meanwhile, they’re making like 200,000 pound a month. You’re sitting here, stuck talking to me.

Charlie Sayce  53:22 

This is a tiny podcast I’ve ever done. So don’t know. I really enjoyed it. It’s nice. I really, really had a good time. Absolutely.

K Anderson  53:32 

Let’s pitch about the people from your work. Yeah.

Charlie Sayce  53:36 

No, because they will listen to Oh, I love all of you. Yeah, yeah. See, you heard it here first. No, but it is it’s really it’s really nice to like, have that stroll down memory lane. Do you not I mean, it like it’s just so nice to, to read to think about it. And also it makes you realise like, God, I was such a fucking mess. Like, I was such a dramatic little mess. Like I really fucking was like, and that made him a bit more empathy for the younger people that I’m around, because I’m like, oh, like,

K Anderson  54:08 

yeah, yeah, I’ve come away with the impression that you were a dramatic mess. Maybe I need more illustrative example.

Charlie Sayce  54:18 

No, I mean, it was just very, like, obviously, like I’ve said before, like, we were kind of like the younger people in that pub. But we were always like, the ones that were like, up doing the karaoke. And it always be like, inevitably, when students are living together that so and so slept with so and so. And then she didn’t do the washing up. And that didn’t happen. It always get poured into the jack corner when we were there having a drink. So it would always start off really nice. And it would always be like, you know, there were it would get to that point where it’s like, normally it was like the kicking out time. And that’d be the point where someone would want to bring up the fact that the washing up wasn’t done that night. And by this point, you’re all like, you know, four sambuccas in, and you’re like, Oh, well, I’ll tell you what, you know, I mean, there was always that kind of Yeah, Yeah The drama was minuscule it was it was that was probably

K Anderson  55:04 

there’s nothing more fun than blown out of proportion drama.

Charlie Sayce  55:09 

Oh my god yes yes yes yes.

K Anderson  55:13 

I am not backing down from this fight I do not care how unimportant it is..  Yeah, I am gonna win

Charlie Sayce  55:20 

and that’s one of the best things about being in a pub where someone else is having that blown out of proportion drama and you get real life television real life television there’s nothing like it when you’re just sitting there watching oh my god and now she’s left and now she’s got up and left. She got to come back she’s come back just come back. Like I love that. Love

K Anderson  55:40 

when whenever there’s one person who’s volume is much louder than the other person and the other person’s like, can we just keep it down? No, I’m not gonna go back down

Charlie Sayce  55:54 

I have to say in that situation I’m the one guy No, I will not keep me down like I am definitely yeah.

K Anderson  56:02 

Because I’m right

Charlie Sayce  56:09 

yeah, definitely be the loud one in that situation. 100%

K Anderson  56:13 

Yeah, but also like it is actually a good tactic because the other person will back down. If they don’t like people looking at them they’ll just be like, right fine. You’re correct. Yeah. So they go Yeah,

Charlie Sayce  56:25 

but that’s like the situation where it’s like the drunk person trying to argue with the bar man is always gonna win that and I love watching those explode as well then the bar man he doesn’t like security. That is one of my that’s my favourite things to watch in a pub to watch that moron get thrown out. And I have been that moron occasionally. But more often than not I’m the person watching

K Anderson  56:43 

when you are That moron how would you do you just just accept I was

Charlie Sayce  56:51 

once I was well, oh no, You never accept it. You never accept it because then they’ve won. So why I remember I got banned for life from a gay bar in Brighton and I would love to be really juicy and Gasby of UK but the problem is I don’t know why I got banned for life that’s probably how messed up I was that night. And I remember going back to night after and being told by security You’re banned for life. And I was like But why and they were like the fact you can’t remember makes it worse Charlie so you’re like I was like But well I’ve thought I’ve might get a diploma might get some sort of like special trophy like there was none of that but then the bar that I’ve been banned from unfortunately had a fire so there was a fire at this

K Anderson  57:38 

or anything on this recording with nothing to

Charlie Sayce  57:41 

do with me. Nothing to do with me. And but after they did a bit of a refurb I thought I’d be really cheeky and I went back and I was like well now it’s like technically a different bar would I be able to come back in and I think I was so brazenly cheeky they were like okay, you’ve got one more chance and then I was allowed back in the bar and thankfully never got kicked out of anywhere again for anything so

K Anderson  58:03 

you didn’t like walk in with a lighter that you were flicking on going like down with an

Charlie Sayce  58:13 

aerosol can just like no none of that nothing at all. I was absolutely on record now. It just so happened to be around the time that I fought well I’m Can I can hopefully get back into it. And they did they did let me back in I think it’s just from being so brazen. You know, we’ve we’ve gone through this. We’ve gone through this massive tragedy. We’ve spent loads of money and you got to come back and do that. But can I come back in now? But yeah, it was it worked.

K Anderson  58:44 

Do you have any memories from the Jack Horner or clubbing from your own cuisine that you want to share? Well, if you do, please get in touch I want to create the biggest online record of people’s memories and stories of queer clubbing, go to lostspacespodcast.com and find the section share a lost space and tell me all about what you got up to. You can also find me on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter with the user handle lost spaces pod. Find out more about Charlie by following him on Twitter as either his personal account which is I am Charlie SES, or the account for repose drag race UK fans, which is rp Dr. UK fans. Lost spaces is not only a podcast, but a concept record as well. I have been writing songs about queer venues and the people who used to live their lives there. And we’ll be releasing songs over the coming year. You can hear the first single, well groomed boys which is also playing underneath my talking right now on all good streaming platforms. If you liked this episode, I would really appreciate if you subscribe, left a review on your podcast player form or just hold people who you think might be interested in giving it a little listen to. I am K Anderson and you have been listening to lost spaces